Botham vs Jadeja (batting)

[subshakerz]

Nah they were both much better than their average. Their long careers hide how quality their peaks were.

Imran had a better peak while Jadeja is in the middle of his and might get better.

But that doesn't hide more years of lesser returns.

 

[Rob Wesley]

Both Jadeja and Imran don’t deserve to be rated as highly as their averages but we must not assume that Botham was in a different league to them because at the end, Botham averaged 34 only with bat. The 100 conversion rate is excellent but he failed a lot with bat too.

I would probably on a fairer level consider their averages as:-

Imran - 34
Jadeja - 35
Botham - 36

 

[subshakerz]

Both Jadeja and Imran don’t deserve to be rated as highly as their averages but we must not assume that Botham was in a different league to them because at the end, Botham averaged 34 only with bat. The 100 conversion rate is excellent but he failed a lot with bat too.

I would probably on a fairer level consider their averages as:-

Imran - 34
Jadeja - 35
Botham - 36

That's a more reasonable opinion.

 

[capt_Luffy]

They would if it was modern Aus or SA though.

He averages 29 without India. And Jadeja played on average significantly tougher conditions against them than Botham did to WI. So not really

 

[subshakerz]

He averages 29 without India. And Jadeja played on average significantly tougher conditions against them than Botham did to WI. So not really

India in Bothams days was a better opposition than Bangladesh and WI in Jadejas time who he benefitted from.

You already admitted that Botham playing better quality bowling neutralised Jadejas pitch point.

 

[capt_Luffy]

India in Bothams days was a better opposition than Bangladesh and WI in Jadejas time who he benefitted from.

You already admitted that Botham playing better quality bowling neutralised Jadejas pitch point.

35+ without them.

Neutralised, yes. Not overwrote as you meant by saying they would complaint with Botham pulling 28 and 29

 

[Rob Wesley]

Botham should have really retired by 1986-1987.

 

[subshakerz]

Neutralised, yes. Not overwrote as you meant by saying they would complaint with Botham pulling 28 and 29

No Botham pulling 28 and 29 today while batting in the top six would generate complaints. There isn't a doubt about that.

 

[capt_Luffy]

No Botham pulling 28 and 29 today while batting in the top six would generate complaints. There isn't a doubt about that.

Overall complaints. Particularly against them, he averaged 29 back then bar India so can't see happening. It's just your head canon.

 

[subshakerz]

Overall complaints. Particularly against them, he averaged 29 back then bar India so can't see happening. It's just your head canon.

You don't need to bar India. They were legit opposition.

If Botham averaged 29 overall yes there would be complaints. He wouldn't be in the top 6.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You don't need to bar India. They were legit opposition.

If Botham averaged 29 overall yes there would be complaints. He wouldn't be in the top 6.

Not saying to discount India, had some brilliant knocks against them (tbf, so was Jadeja's ton to Bangladesh). I just pointed out that without his weakest opposition, his Overall numbers are what you are saying he will get chastised for doing to his two best.

 

[subshakerz]

Not saying to discount India, had some brilliant knocks against them (tbf, so was Jadeja's ton to Bangladesh). I just pointed out that without his weakest opposition, his Overall numbers are what you are saying he will get chastised for doing to his two best.

We don't remove legit teams to make a cricketer seem sub par.

You can't say you won't discount and then say well look at Botham without this team. You are contradicting yourself.

Again, your entire point would be more valid if Jadeja actually thrived against his top teams. He didn't.

So we are debating them both as mixed bags. And Botham clearly was more tested up the order and had more impact in terms of tons which is the clear distinction IMO.

 

[capt_Luffy]

We don't remove legit teams to make a cricketer seem sub par.

You can't say you won't discount and then say well look at Botham without this team. You are contradicting yourself.

Again, your entire point would be more valid if Jadeja actually thrived against his top teams. He didn't.

So we are debating them both as mixed bags. And Botham clearly was more tested up the order and had more impact in terms of tons which is the clear distinction IMO.

We do point out when a cricketer does significantly worse without their weakest team.

Your point would be valid if Jadeja was **** against them, he wasn't. If I would criticize Rahane for averaging 28 and 29 vs Australia and SA, think how you would rate Lamb if he averaged 21 vs WI??

 

[subshakerz]

We do point out when a cricketer does significantly worse without their weakest team.

Your point would be valid if Jadeja was **** against them, he wasn't. If I would criticize Rahane for averaging 28 and 29 vs Australia and SA, think how you would rate Lamb if he averaged 21 vs WI??

Obviously we would think less of Lamb, the same way it impacts our rating of Botham.

Jadeja needs a better argument than he sucked less against the best teams he faced. Sorry.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Obviously we would think less of Lamb, the same way it impacts our rating of Botham.

Jadeja needs a better argument than he sucked less against the best teams he faced. Sorry.

You just are being wilfully obtuse with it. Fact is Jadeja was fine and Botham wasn't. Many players averages 28 and 29 against Australia and SA. Rahane's ratings would suck, but not nearly as would Lamb's. Sorry

 

[subshakerz]

You just are being wilfully obtuse with it. Fact is Jadeja was fine and Botham wasn't. Many players averages 28 and 29 against Australia and SA. Rahane's ratings would suck, but not nearly as would Lamb's. Sorry

You know you would regard that record negatively with Rahane.

You don't with Jadeja.

Why?

Because you lowered the standard for Jadeja.

Why?

Because you know Jadeja isn't the quality of a regular middle order bat.

It's that simple.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You know you would regard that record negatively with Rahane.

You don't with Jadeja.

Why?

Because you lowered the standard for Jadeja.

Why?

Because you know Jadeja isn't the quality of a regular middle order bat.

It's that simple.

Not nearly as much as I would regard that record negatively with Lamb though. And by those standards, I wouldn't regard Botham's AUS record positively as well. He averages sub 30 there too, lower than Jadeja vs SA. I lower the standards for both, and Botham vs WI just happened to go even lower than that.

 

[subshakerz]

Not nearly as much as I would regard that record negatively with Lamb though. And by those standards, I wouldn't regard Botham's AUS record positively as well. He averages sub 30 there too, lower than Jadeja vs SA. I lower the standards for both, and Botham vs WI just happened to go even lower than that.

Thanks for admitting you lower the standard for Jadeja.

You wouldn't take Jadeja vs SA over Botham vs Aus and you know that.

If you say you lower the standard for Botham, logically what should be a massive failure for him against an ATG WI lineup should be a more forgivable failure that even Jadeja would be expected to have.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Thanks for admitting you lower the standard for Jadeja.

You wouldn't take Jadeja vs SA over Botham vs Aus and you know that.

If you say you lower the standard for Botham, logically what should be a massive failure for him against an ATG WI lineup should be a more forgivable failure that even Jadeja would be expected to have.

I won't, but I also won't rate Botham's Aussie record positively at all if he was a frontline Batsman.

Expected or not are all semantics. one failed, other didn't. You said Botham averaging 29 vs his two best teams today would be an issue, he did so vs Australia and no one bat and eye. Botham's WI record is pretty significant mark on him, and if the roles were reversed, you would be chewing on it nonstop and you know so very well.

 

[subshakerz]

I won't, but I also won't rate Botham's Aussie record positively at all if he was a frontline Batsman.

Expected or not are all semantics. one failed, other didn't. You said Botham averaging 29 vs his two best teams today would be an issue, he did so vs Australia and no one bat and eye. Botham's WI record is pretty significant mark on him, and if the roles were reversed, you would be chewing on it nonstop and you know so very well.

If the roles were reversed, I wouldn't mind Jadejas WI record that much because I don't consider him a full specialist bat quality yet.

The main point which I don't see you disagreeing with is that both had mixed bag records versus countries.

The big distinction is one faced consistently the top six batting pressure and has many more tons.