Sachin vs Viv against spin

[Thala_0710]

Bedi and especially Chandra are in the same tier as Kumble and Gibbs for me. Saqlain didn't play enough to be that high.

I have Underwood in that tier. Bedi, Chandra and Saqlain a bit below

 

[capt_Luffy]

Underwood is really underrated around here

No he isn't. Really Great India record and decent in Australia, but he was a big benefactor of Uncovered Home pitches and sucked in WI. Chandrashekhar is the underrated one. Very balanced record, especially for someone who was practically a high ceiling low floor player, capable of winning matches single handedly. 8 5-fers in Aus/Eng/WI/NZ and a pretty spotless record.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I have Underwood in that tier. Bedi, Chandra and Saqlain a bit below

Underwood shan't be a tier above Chandra

 

[Thala_0710]

No he isn't. Really Great India record and decent in Australia, but he was a big benefactor of Uncovered Home pitches and sucked in WI. Chandrashekhar is the underrated one. Very balanced record, especially for someone who was practically a high ceiling low floor player, capable of winning matches single handedly. 8 5-fers in Aus/Eng/WI/NZ and a pretty spotless record.

Those home wkts in England weren't as spin friendly as you think. He sucked in Wi ofc but was pretty good in Aus and Ind. Overall his record is just better to me.
Tier or not is arguable but I have Underwood definitely ahead.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Those home wkts in England weren't as spin friendly as you think. He sucked in Wi ofc but was pretty good in Aus and Ind. Overall his record is just better to me.
Tier or not is arguable but I have Underwood definitely ahead.

Nah. Chandra has a better record in Australia, significantly so in WI and a solid one in England. And early career Underwood had pretty big turners at home. Someone posted a stat here once, and his home split was like 18/32 pre and post covers.

 

[Thala_0710]

Nah. Chandra has a better record in Australia, significantly so in WI and a solid one in England. And early career Underwood had pretty big turners at home. Someone posted a stat here once, and his home split was like 18/32 pre and post covers.

Their record in Australia is similar, who's better is arguable.
Also Underwood has an exceptionally high % of getting middle order wickets, where as Chandra's % is higher with the tail.

 

[Thala_0710]

On metrics such as match factor and discount factor, Underwood vs Bedi, Chandra is actually a massive difference. Going series by series, I'd still go Underwood easily.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Their record in Australia is similar, who's better is arguable.
Also Underwood has an exceptionally high % of getting middle order wickets, where as Chandra's % is higher with the tail.

Just remember, Chandra was India's biggest match winner away before Bumrah came. On removing SL and NZ (Underwood took 56@12) their averages are also almost equal.
Chandra has a higher WPM in Australia, a better average and a single handed match winning 12-fer.

 

[Thala_0710]

Just remember, Chandra was India's biggest match winner away before Bumrah came.

That says more about our pace attack than anything tbh.

 

[capt_Luffy]

That says more about our pace attack than anything tbh.

Dude won us matches in WI, Eng and AUS, and was instrumental in Series wins away as well. You can't just shove that away. Remove minnows and Underwood's record falls flat. They are best have comparable Home and Australia records, Pakistan both were bad but Chandra got the worst deal and somehow still was the standalone bowler, and a significantly better record against the best batting side of their era (WI) away. Will give Underwood the advantage in the other's home albeit Chandra was instrumental in a Series win there and generally did very solid. Saying Chandrashekhar is comfortably worse is just wrong imo.

 

[Thala_0710]

Chandra has a higher WPM in Australia, a better average and a single handed match winning 12-fer.

He does. Again he has the higher highs but lower lows. Underwood was more consistent there over his career. I'd take Chandra over Underwood in Australia but it's not a big gap.
What is a big gap though is that other spinners avged higher in Underwood's games than Chandra's, still Underwood avgs significantly less, and takes more quality wickets.
Now a bit of that is down to Chandra playing with Bedi and Prasanna. Taking them out, the other spinners avg gets levelled, but still Underwood avgs quite lower.

 

[capt_Luffy]

He does. Again he has the higher highs but lower lows. Underwood was more consistent there over his career. I'd take Chandra over Underwood in Australia but it's not a big gap.
What is a big gap though is that other spinners avged higher in Underwood's games than Chandra's, still Underwood avgs significantly less, and takes more quality wickets.
Now a bit of that is down to Chandra playing with Bedi and Prasanna. Taking them out, the other spinners avg gets levelled, but still Underwood avgs quite lower.

You can't be serious given in almost every match Chandra played in he shared the ball with Bedi, Prasanna and sigh, Venkat. He legit played with only top class spinners, the best of whom was his equal.

 

[Thala_0710]

Dude won us matches in WI, Eng and AUS, and was instrumental in Series wins away as well. You can't just shove that away. Remove minnows and Underwood's record falls flat. They are best have comparable Home and Australia records, Pakistan both were bad but Chandra got the worst deal and somehow still was the standalone bowler, and a significantly better record against the best batting side of their era (WI) away. Will give Underwood the advantage in the other's home albeit Chandra was instrumental in a Series win there and generally did very solid. Saying Chandrashekhar is comfortably worse is just wrong imo.

And Underwood won Eng matches too though. And home records aren't equal. Underwood is much better there.

 

[capt_Luffy]

And Underwood won Eng matches too though. And home records aren't equal. Underwood is much better there.

Adjust for pitches and they kinda are yes.

 

[Thala_0710]

You can't be serious given in almost every match Chandra played in he shared the ball with Bedi, Prasanna and sigh, Venkat. He legit played with only top class spinners, the best of whom was his equal.

Read the last bit, even taking them out, the relative gap is still quite big

 

[capt_Luffy]

He does. Again he has the higher highs but lower lows. Underwood was more consistent there over his career. I'd take Chandra over Underwood in Australia but it's not a big gap.
What is a big gap though is that other spinners avged higher in Underwood's games than Chandra's, still Underwood avgs significantly less, and takes more quality wickets.
Now a bit of that is down to Chandra playing with Bedi and Prasanna. Taking them out, the other spinners avg gets levelled, but still Underwood avgs quite lower.

Remove the minnows and they average same over career.

 

[Thala_0710]

Adjust for pitches and they kinda are yes.

Eng's pitches were not much more spin friendly than India's over the entire course of their career. The avg spin friendliness would be at a similar level.

 

[Thala_0710]

Remove the minnows and they average same over career.

NZ are not minnows. SL can be removed yes, Underwood still wins easily

 

[capt_Luffy]

Eng's pitches were not much more spin friendly than India's over the entire course of their career. The avg spin friendliness would be at a similar level.

Yes but there's a significant dissonance in his record in uncovered pitches and covered ones, where he was much more of a defensive bowler. So not a totally fair comp.

 

[capt_Luffy]

NZ are not minnows. SL can be removed yes, Underwood still wins easily

NZ batting back then was preposterous, yes. Name one quality Batsman bar Turner.