Better Batsman : Jadeja vs Imran

[Randomfan]

I think talking about easier conditions for Jadeja does not make sense if you look at avg runs scored in country where both played most number of tests. Talkign about 3 or 6 innings in SA playing or not playing hardly proves any point given,

Runs per wicket in India during Jadeja's career: 30 ( One of the hardest place to bat during his career)

Run per wicket in Pakistan during IK's career: 34 ( Easiest palce to bat during IK's career )

Home grounds are outsized sample size for both as opposed other venues. It will have far more impact on over all avg than presence or absence of any other venue.

 

[sayon basak]

Yah, WI actually has been a hard place to bat during Jadeja's career.

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You sure that's not because the WI batters just **** their pants?

 

[OverratedSanity]

You sure that's not because the WI batters just **** their pants?

Touring batsmen have found it tough there too, WI's batsmen are just worse. WI regularly produce some of the lowest scoring tests.

 

[ma1978]

Anyway think this one is settled based on the outcome

 

[sayon basak]

Touring batsmen have found it tough there too, WI's batsmen are just worse. WI regularly produce some of the lowest scoring tests.

While that is true, the two times Jadeja toured WI, the Indian batters averaged really high; so did the WI bowlers.

Actually my point was that we cannot just announce a place to be hard to bat on by this simplistic approach.

 

[OverratedSanity]

While that is true, the two times Jadeja toured WI, the Indian batters averaged really high; so did the WI bowlers.

Actually my point was that we cannot just announce a place to be hard to bat on by this simplistic approach.

You've got to essentially go game by game imo but that's too hard

 

[subshakerz]

Imran plays 4 games in NZ: Proven, varied success
Jadeja plays 3 games in NZ: Barely played there.

Truly amazing what a difference one game makes.

Did you exactly read how they did there? Um yeah Imran is proven in NZ relative to Jadeja.

Imran played in two series, both against Hadlee, and averages 67.

Jadeja plays one series and top scores with 30*. Of course folks here with call it success because he averages 35.

Like I understand you want a zinger but at least give the full context.

 

[subshakerz]

I think talking about easier conditions for Jadeja does not make sense if you look at avg runs scored in country where both played most number of tests. Talkign about 3 or 6 innings in SA playing or not playing hardly proves any point given,

Runs per wicket in India during Jadeja's career: 30 ( One of the hardest place to bat during his career)

Run per wicket in Pakistan during IK's career: 34 ( Easiest palce to bat during IK's career )

Home grounds are outsized sample size for both as opposed other venues. It will have far more impact on over all avg than presence or absence of any other venue.

Imran played much more away from home though.

 

[h_hurricane]

Did you exactly read how they did there? Um yeah Imran is proven in NZ relative to Jadeja.

Imran played in two series, both against Hadlee, and averages 67.

Jadeja plays one series and top scores with 30*. Of course folks here with call it success because he averages 35.

Like I understand you want a zinger but at least give the full context.

The full context is that the two matches from Imran were played on very flat tracks with a draw result in both. In fact, from the beginning of his batting peak from early 1987 until end of his career, Imran played 28 matches out of which 20 were no results. He averaged 83 in the matches that were drawn in this period and 27 when there was a result. Clearly took advantage of generally batting friendly tracks across the world.

Jadeja on the other hand has played on a lot of green mambas (performing with the bat where doesn't get the due credit) and several spinning tracks (performing with both bat and bowl) in the last 4-5 years.

 

[subshakerz]

The full context is that the two matches from Imran were played on very flat tracks with a draw result in both. In fact, from the beginning of his batting peak from early 1987 until end of his career, Imran played 28 matches out of which 20 were no results. He averaged 83 in the matches that were drawn in this period and 27 when there was a result. Clearly took advantage of generally batting friendly tracks across the world.

Jadeja on the other hand has played on a lot of green mambas (performing with the bat where doesn't get the due credit) and several spinning tracks (performing with both bat and bowl) in the last 4-5 years.

Yeah sure the last series in England for Jadeja was full of green bambas, especially when he scored his ton.

And so many green mambas in SA and NZ with so many tests there.

Did Imran score a lot in drawn tests? Sure. But quite a few of those were drawn because he helped to save the test which you like to ignore. And he generally played better attacks more, played away from home more and unlike Jadeja wasn't helped by minnows.

Problem with your side is you don't want to concede any advantage to Imran. I am willing to admit Jadeja had tougher home conditions or that he has been specialist test class standard the last few years based on his improvement.

To be clear, I gave zero problem with someone picking Jadeja, though it's fairly obvious why some are. But I have issue with pretending it's not close.

 

[Randomfan]

You sure that's not because the WI batters just **** their pants?

Visiting teams taken together have 28 runs/ wicket in WI.

 

[h_hurricane]

Yeah sure the last series in England for Jadeja was full of green bambas, especially when he scored his ton.

And so many green mambas in SA and NZ with so many tests there.

Did Imran score a lot in drawn tests? Sure. But quite a few of those were drawn because he helped to save the test which you like to ignore. And he generally played better attacks more, played away from home more and unlike Jadeja wasn't helped by minnows.

Problem with your side is you don't want to concede any advantage to Imran. I am willing to admit Jadeja had tougher home conditions or that he has been specialist test class standard the last few years based on his improvement.

To be clear, I gave zero problem with someone picking Jadeja, though it's fairly obvious why some are. But I have issue with pretending it's not close.

Oh, I never said they are not close. In an earlier post I said that Jadeja went ahead of Imran in the last series. Before this, it was ridiculously close imo.

I don't have a problem with bringing up points with an advantage to Imran to Jadeja in batting. Very fair if someone brings up valid points in his favor, but not 2 innings in NZ when he scored 71 and 69 on highways.

And do not pretend that I said that recent series was full of green mambas. I never said it. I was referring to generally bowler friendly pitches Jadeja played in last 4-5 years (England series in 2021-22, WTC final same season, the last B-G series down under, the test match in SA 2023-24 which was one of the lowest scoring matches ever, the Bangalore match last season when Rohit batted first after it rained).

 

[Randomfan]

Imran played much more away from home though.

Here is home and away for both:

IK:
38 tests at home - avg 45
50 tests away - avg 33

Jadeja:
49 tests home - avg 37
36 tests away/neutral - 38

Clearly, 38 or 49 tests is large number for both compared to tests in any other venues. No away single venue for both player will have 38 or 49 tests to have same influence on career avg. That's the point I was making. Jadeja playing or not playing 4 tests in SA is not going to tell us much when discussing career avg.

I wasn't saying that IK did not play more away. Yes, IK did play more away but we can also see a huge drop in Avg when he played away. No issue with him averaging 45 at home. It was easier place for batsmen so kudos for him to cash in. But any argument about Jadeja getting easier conditions is misplaced. That's simply not true. If anything, it's other way around.

 

[Silver Silva]

Jadeja has managed to outperform even the mainstay Indian batting talents in the 2020's..

Pujara, Rahane, Kohli, Rohit , KL Rahul all averaged lower in the 5 year period a further indication to the excellence of Jadeja.

 

[subshakerz]

Here is home and away for both:

IK:
38 tests at home - avg 45
50 tests away - avg 33

Jadeja:
49 tests home - avg 37
36 tests away/neutral - 38

Clearly, 38 or 49 tests is large number for both compared to tests in any other venues. No away single venue for both player will have 38 or 49 tests to have same influence on career avg. That's the point I was making. Jadeja playing or not playing 4 tests in SA is not going to tell us much when discussing career avg.

I wasn't saying that IK did not play more away. Yes, IK did play more away but we can also see a huge drop in Avg when he played away. No issue with him averaging 45 at home. It was easier place for batsmen so kudos for him to cash in. But any argument about Jadeja getting easier conditions is misplaced. That's simply not true. If anything, it's other way around.

A few points:

- Remove minnows SL for IK and Bang for Jadeja and the average difference is closer

- If Jadeja played as much in SA and NZ as he did in England and Aus, then yeah that average may be more tested. But he didn't and hence the number of away tests matters

 

[subshakerz]

Oh, I never said they are not close. In an earlier post I said that Jadeja went ahead of Imran in the last series. Before this, it was ridiculously close imo.

That's fine. What if he completely fails in the next SA or NZ series. Will he be back in a tie?

I don't have a problem with bringing up points with an advantage to Imran to Jadeja in batting. Very fair if someone brings up valid points in his favor, but not 2 innings in NZ when he scored 71 and 69 on highways.

The point was whether he is proven or not in NZ and I don't think IK in NZ by these batters standards, where mid 30s is a pass, is considered a question mark. Unless you think we should disregard flat pitch performances for both, in which case Jadejas recent ton should be disregarded.

And do not pretend that I said that recent series was full of green mambas. I never said it. I was referring to generally bowler friendly pitches Jadeja played in last 4-5 years (England series in 2021-22, WTC final same season, the last B-G series down under, the test match in SA 2023-24 which was one of the lowest scoring matches ever, the Bangalore match last season when Rohit batted first after it rained).

Sure we can agree that the pitches have been touch trickier for Jadeja but I wouldn't say he succeeded on those pitches either

 

[Randomfan]

A few points:

- Remove minnows SL for IK and Bang for Jadeja and the average difference is closer

- If Jadeja played as much in SA and NZ as he did in England and Aus, then yeah that average may be more tested. But he didn't and hence the number of away tests matters

You can do all those adjustment and it won't make a huge difference in career avg. That's the poiint I was making. Biggest influce is still the home stats for both due to size being so large.

Both are in the same range and both will fall in same range despite doing any adjustments. I am anyway not comparing avg one to one to declare one is better than other based on one point differene or something like that.

 

[subshakerz]

You can do all those adjustment and it won't make a huge difference in career avg. That's the poiint I was making. Biggest influce is still the home stats for both due to size being so large.

Both are in the same range and both will fall in same range despite doing any adjustments. I am anyway not comparing avg one to one to declare one is better than other based on one point differene or something like that.

Haha I love how in bowler comparisons the first thing you do is remove not just minnows but weak countries, but you can't be bothered to do that in this case.

 

[ma1978]

No one said it’s not close. I’d view them as the most direct comparable on batting for a number of reasons. But lot of arguments to bring Jadeja down here aren’t valid (and I would agree the same on Imran). Both were bits and pieces batters who willed their way into being high quality test class batters over the course of their careers

 

[Silver Silva]

A few points:

- Remove minnows SL for IK and Bang for Jadeja and the average difference is closer

- If Jadeja played as much in SA and NZ as he did in England and Aus, then yeah that average may be more tested. But he didn't and hence the number of away tests matters

But the Bangladesh that Jadeja faces cannot be classed as minnows ..

Pretty sure he would have faced Shakib , Taijul and Mehidy who are not minnow level spinners in subcontinent conditions ..They probably have close to 700 test wickets between them ..