Kapil/Jadeja vs Botham/Flintoff

[Johan]

and you can say the same about batting. Jadeja is selected for batting alone anywhere in the world. Botham is selected nowhere in the world.

Botham is a better Batsman than Jadeja, a bit better with the bat, clearly better with the ball.

 

[reyrey]

haven’t we established that average is a better metric than rpi.

In most cases, yes, but there will always be outliers. Botham's tons, and more importantly, his game defining tons, are something Jadeja lacks in his batting resume.

 

[subshakerz]

Lol @ salty suddenly talking about NO boosts when they never apparently apply to Imran Khan.

I always accepted that Imran's average is inflated.

 

[subshakerz]

Fair. But if the argument is about who the better top order batsman is, I would prefer the more consistent one.

Jadeja was a top order bat for 25 innings at number 6.

 

[subshakerz]

and you can say the same about batting. Jadeja is selected for batting alone anywhere in the world. Botham is selected nowhere in the world.

Then why was Jadeja dropped while India had a struggling middler order overseas?

Because he wasn't good enough until only recent years.

 

[subshakerz]

In most cases, yes, but there will always be outliers. Botham's tons, and more importantly, his game defining tons, are something Jadeja lacks in his batting resume.

Plus Jadeja has a NO boost, around 1/5th of his innings. An advantage Botham doesn't have.

 

[ma1978]

Plus Jadeja has a NO boost, around 1/5th of his innings. An advantage Botham doesn't have.

not ours are meaningless, we established that when discussing imran

argue the numbers rather than your intuition. Jadeja’s a batter batter and it’s not that close

 

[Johan]

argue the numbers rather than your intuition. Jadeja’s a batter batter and it’s not that close

we established none of that in the Imran discussion, Botham has 3× more hundreds in 25% more innings, makes more run per innings and has more match winning performances with the bat by far. It's clear who is better with the bat. Jadeja being a better bat and not that close is clear blind average reading.

 

[subshakerz]

not ours are meaningless, we established that when discussing imran

argue the numbers rather than your intuition. Jadeja’s a batter batter and it’s not that close

No they aren't. It is a slight average boost and Botham if he batted at 7/8 would also have many NOs. I have accepted that with Imran.

 

[ma1978]

No they aren't. It is a slight average boost and Botham if he batted at 7/8 would also have many NOs. I have accepted that with Imran.

wasn’t aware 15% is slight. It’s the difference between someone averaging 45 and 52.

also home / away split is massive. Jadeja better outside India

also Botham averaging 14 in the West Indies

 

[subshakerz]

we established none of that in the Imran discussion, Botham has 3× more hundreds in 25% more innings, makes more run per innings and has more match winning performances with the bat by far. It's clear who is better with the bat. Jadeja being a better bat and not that close is clear blind average reading.

Yes. I have to say I'm finding this conversation bizarre. There is hardly much difference between Imran and Jadeja while clear advantages for Botham. It's kinda disheartening how some folk simply don't know basics of how to judge bats.

Botham had the expectations of a middle order bat his entire career and corresponding output. Jadeja simply does not and I can guarantee you almost nobody here arguing for him would put him in their Indian top 6 until only recently.

 

[Johan]

also Botham averaging 14 in the West Indies

Jadeja averages 2.67 in South Africa.

 

[subshakerz]

wasn’t aware 15% is slight. It’s the difference between someone averaging 45 and 52.

also home / away split is massive. Jadeja better outside India

also Botham averaging 14 in the West Indies

Jadeja is basically 20 percent not outs, not 15.

Jadeja is a far inferior away bowler which is his primary skill.

The only reason his overall figures look so nice is because his homebase is in India, if he debuted for NZ he may not even have a career his bowling would be that neutered.

As for batting, again, Botham was clearly a frontline bat, Jadeja is only recently that and you all are getting excited.

 

[ma1978]

we established none of that in the Imran discussion, Botham has 3× more hundreds in 25% more innings, makes more run per innings and has more match winning performances with the bat by far. It's clear who is better with the bat. Jadeja being a better bat and not that close is clear blind average reading.

can debate more match winning performances

centuries are arbitrary. Jadeja has 32 scores past 50 in 128 innings (25%). Botham has 36 scores past fifty in 161 innings (22%)

and then the consistency abroad and the West Indies issue w Botham

Can’t see the argument for Botham

 

[ma1978]

Jadeja is basically 20 percent not outs, not 15.

Jadeja is a far inferior away bowler which is his primary skill.

The only reason his overall figures look so nice is because his homebase is in India, if he debuted for NZ he may not even have a career his bowling would be that neutered.

As for batting, again, Botham was clearly a frontline bat, Jadeja is only recently that and you all are getting excited.

He may been a frontline bat for longer but clearly a worse bat

 

[ImpatientLime]

and you can say the same about batting. Jadeja is selected for batting alone anywhere in the world. Botham is selected nowhere in the world.

i mean he's clearly not selected anywhere in the world for his batting alone given the amount of times he's been asked to ride the bench away from home.

 

[ma1978]

Jadeja averages 2.67 in South Africa.

sample size

 

[ma1978]

i mean he's clearly not selected anywhere in the world for his batting alone given the amount of times he's been asked to ride the bench away from home.

If Botham was so much better why are his numbers so much worse

 

[ImpatientLime]

Jadeja averages 2.67 in South Africa.

ah but you see, sample size is too small because he wasn't considered good enough to be a regular starter on tours to south africa.

 

[subshakerz]

can debate more match winning performances

centuries are arbitrary. Jadeja has 32 scores past 50 in 128 innings (25%). Botham has 36 scores past fifty in 161 innings (22%)

and then the consistency abroad and the West Indies issue w Botham

Can’t see the argument for Botham

Ah yes as we know fifties are really the best match winning metric.