Barry Richards vs Geoffrey Boycott

[peterhrt]

I don't really know enough about Boycott in FC though. I've got little issue with his test SR as an opener. 3 day games can turn a lot of innings into quasi ODIs though. Ive got no idea if he played FC to match situation or engaged in average boosting.

This is a valid point. Brian Close captained Boycott and said he would not pick him in his all-time Yorkshire XI because his reluctance to up the tempo when needed cost the team victories. Close was England captain when Boycott was dropped for slow scoring. Herbert Sutcliffe said Boycott should never have been made Yorkshire captain because of his refusal to declare until he had reached his century. Others, as just mentioned above, praised Boycott for propping up a weak batting side. One of the main reasons Hampshire won the County Championship in 1973 was Richards setting up early declarations with positive batting.

First-class averages by country:

Boycott: England 56.74, Australia 54.45, South Africa 51.27, West Indies 69.80, New Zealand 23.60, India 76.60, Pakistan 96.16, Sri Lanka 3.50

Barry Richards: England 50.27, Australia 106.71, South Africa 58.58

Graeme Pollock: England 45.61, Australia 51.12, South Africa 56.28, New Zealand 31.00

 

[Johan]

Boycott: England 56.74, Australia 54.45, South Africa 51.27, West Indies 69.80, New Zealand 23.60, India 76.60, Pakistan 96.16, Sri Lanka 3.50

Graeme Pollock: England 45.61, Australia 51.12, South Africa 56.28, New Zealand 31.00

I'm assuming these are small sample sizes?

 

[peterhrt]

I'm assuming these are small sample sizes?

Yes. Two and three completed innings respectively. Boycott's average of 96.16 in Pakistan was from six completed innings. He avoided touring the sub-continent until late in his career. Boycott's average of 23.60 in NZ came from 15 completed innings.

 

[SeamUp]

Yes. Two and three completed innings respectively. Boycott's average of 96.16 in Pakistan was from six completed innings. He avoided touring the sub-continent until late in his career. Boycott's average of 23.60 in NZ came from 15 completed innings.

How did that go down in England at the time? Peculiar stance and not worrying about your position in the team no matter how good you are.

 

[Johan]

I'm pretty sure that was a common thing, for England to send some weak teams for away tours that weren't either the Australian Ashes or the Carribean, even West Indies got some half strength lineups in 1947-48 I believe.

 

[Bolo.]

It's hard for me to say, I'm not fully aware of the standards in South African FC and know enough of the Australian one to know that the Australian ones were real runfests but I largely compared their CC records because, as I said, it's the one both individuals shared for an extended period of time, if it was indeed Barry at his worst, well then that's too tragic and shows we shouldn't base FC career on the basis of one competition.

Geoffrey's longevity is very impressive, Barry finished up in South Africa by 1976 and England by 1978 and was declining badly by/after 1976 while Geoffrey was a FC freak well into his 40s and averaging 60+ in 80s county, even topping averages one year, and obviously he started being a FC elite almost 5 years before Barry.

I don't think he particularly did average boosting but moreso he was batting for a pretty weak Yorkshire line-up, and opening on top, so it was acceptable that he chose to play slower than others.

I also think that they actually bowled more overs in County Matches than the three day implies they did, generally it's 90 overs a day so three days should output to around 270 overs total but you'd see they commonly over 320 overs so effectively it was more than three day games.

There isnt a huge difference in averages for the isolation era guys who did a bunch of RSA/CC. RSA was likely a bit tougher, but I don't think you can draw definitive conclusions based on averages. Jimmy Cook is kinda funny though. 43 RSA and 70 CC.

Huge fan of longevity. There are almost no modern players who have Boycott beat. Barry played a bit longer than the 78 you seem to be implying, but still pretty meh.

Fair point about the extra overs. But the point is still relevant. It was an era of slower SRs.

 

[Johan]

There isnt a huge difference in averages for the isolation era guys who did a bunch of RSA/CC. RSA was likely a bit tougher, but I don't think you can draw definitive conclusions based on averages. Jimmy Cook is kinda funny though. 43 RSA and 70 CC.

Huge fan of longevity. There are almost no modern players who have Boycott beat. Barry played a bit longer than the 78 you seem to be implying, but still pretty meh.

Fair point about the extra overs. But the point is still relevant. It was an era of slower SRs.

Indeed, it seems like most of the RSA bats take a boost away from home than at home as far as First Class Cricket goes, Barry and Graeme are kind of exceptions in that regard in England but I don't think Graeme ever played CC.

I like the concept of Extended brilliance, someone who was great for a long amount of time, Barry faced a decline after 1976 in FC Cricket in general while Boycott was great for a ridiculously long amount of time, he was making hundreds against Malcolm Marshall and Richard Hadlee in his mid 40s and averaging 60+ in FC.

 

[SeamUp]

There isnt a huge difference in averages for the isolation era guys who did a bunch of RSA/CC. RSA was likely a bit tougher, but I don't think you can draw definitive conclusions based on averages. Jimmy Cook is kinda funny though. 43 RSA and 70 CC.

Huge fan of longevity. There are almost no modern players who have Boycott beat. Barry played a bit longer than the 78 you seem to be implying, but still pretty meh.

Fair point about the extra overs. But the point is still relevant. It was an era of slower SRs.

Jimmy Cook explains how result wickets were produced in the Currie Cup for 3-day cricket here.

 

[peterhrt]

How did that go down in England at the time? Peculiar stance and not worrying about your position in the team no matter how good you are.

The first occasion was 1968-69. All those picked for the cancelled tour of South Africa made themselves available to visit Pakistan in February, except Barrington, who had retired after a heart attack, and Boycott. They were replaced by Milburn and leg-spinner Robin Hobbs.

In 1971-72 England were due to tour India and Pakistan but the trip was cancelled due to security concerns. Boycott made himself unavailable anyway, wintering in South Africa instead. A year later the tour did take place. Illingworth was the last incumbent England captain to date to make himself unavailable for a specific tour. The captaincy was then offered to Mike Smith who declined, and the uncapped Tony Lewis led the side. Boycott, Edrich, D'Oliveira, Snow and others also turned down the tour. In 1976-77 Boycott was still in self-imposed exile so missed that trip as well.

Boycott went to Pakistan in 1977-78 and visited India for the one-off Golden Jubilee Test in 1979-80. In 1981-82, a six-Test series, he broke the Test run aggregate record in the third Test in Delhi, played one more Test, then left the tour early in a sulk. It later transpired he was preparing for the upcoming rebel trip to South Africa.

All this added to the controversy surrounding Boycott. As with Pietersen there was sharp division between those who saw him as victim and culprit. Some of the latter argued that by picking his tours his standing as a batsman was diminished. They also pointed out that he averaged over seventy in first-class cricket in 1975 and 1976 when he should have been facing Lillee, Thomson, Roberts and Holding.

 

[Johan]

Another pretty underrated Geoffrey Boycott statistic, he played in 1970s England and 1980s England, and England in the time was one of the spiciest places on planet Earth, for example...in the 1970s, touring pacers averaged such

India: 27.89
England: 28.42
New Zealand: 28.43
Australia: 30.92
West Indies: 35.27
South Africa: 42.45
Pakistan: 52.08

I reckon India is due to notoriously brittle nature of their home pitches and due to their batsman not having the best technique against pace, but England is unusually low, even lower than Australia.

The same trend continues in the 1980s.

England: 26.85
Australia: 30.21

Now I'm aware English batting was...a little iffy in the 1980s, but not weaker than Kiwi batting and they were putting 31+, it's absurdly low for England, they are the only country below 30, let alone 27.

Thinking of it, how do modern countries compare? well, most of us would agree that in Silverwood era, England had iffy batting and spicy pitches, modern South Africa have very spicy pitches and iffy batting, Australia since about 2023 has iffy batting and super spicy wickets. Compared to these three...

2023-Current Australia: 27.98
2020s South Africa: 27.39
Root/Silverwood England: 26.79

Other than the Cricketing hell that was Root/Silverwood England, Geoffrey was literally batting and opening in a place that resembles the difficulty and level of pace aid of modern day South Africa and Australia, only marginally inferior, also I reckon with more spin aid than those two countries.

Also, the one Australia tour you can say he failed is also the lowest scoring Australian series in the entirety of the 20th century, like, literally lower than Golden Era tours, it's the lowest scoring series in Australia since 1880s.



Other than that one series in Australia, Geoffrey averages 59 in Australia and 51 away from home.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Another pretty underrated Geoffrey Boycott statistic, he played in 1970s England and 1980s England, and England in the time was one of the spiciest places on planet Earth, for example...in the 1970s, touring pacers averaged such

India: 27.89
England: 28.42
New Zealand: 28.43
Australia: 30.92
West Indies: 35.27
South Africa: 42.45
Pakistan: 52.08

I reckon India is due to notoriously brittle nature of their home pitches and due to their batsman not having the best technique against pace, but England is unusually low, even lower than Australia.

The same trend continues in the 1980s.

England: 26.85
Australia: 30.21

Now I'm aware English batting was...a little iffy in the 1980s, but not weaker than Kiwi batting and they were putting 31+, it's absurdly low for England, they are the only country below 30, let alone 27.

Thinking of it, how do modern countries compare? well, most of us would agree that in Silverwood era, England had iffy batting and spicy pitches, modern South Africa have very spicy pitches and iffy batting, Australia since about 2023 has iffy batting and super spicy wickets. Compared to these three...

2023-Current Australia: 27.98
2020s South Africa: 27.39
Root/Silverwood England: 26.79

Other than the Cricketing hell that was Root/Silverwood England, Geoffrey was literally batting and opening in a place that resembles the difficulty and level of pace aid of modern day South Africa and Australia, only marginally inferior, also I reckon with more spin aid than those two countries.

Also, the one Australia tour you can say he failed is also the lowest scoring Australian series in the entirety of the 20th century, like, literally lower than Golden Era tours, it's the lowest scoring series in Australia since 1880s.

View attachment 48720

Other than that one series in Australia, Geoffrey averages 59 in Australia and 51 away from home.

Boycott's record when old against Lillee and Thomson is top tier.

 

[Johan]

Boycott's record when old against Lillee and Thomson is top tier.

Yeah, his hundreds at Trent Bridge and Lord's in 80s are classic when Lillee was literally breathing fire, especially at Trent Bridge and no one else was scoring. Almost like having an actual test record has advantages

 

[Johan]

I'm pretty sure that was a common thing, for England to send some weak teams for away tours that weren't either the Australian Ashes or the Carribean, even West Indies got some half strength lineups in 1947-48 I believe.

Yup...they did...

 

[Johan]

@subshakerz I think Greenidge>Boycott is silly

 

[DrWolverine]

Boycott is the second best post war opener.
He is ahead of Greenidge, Smith, Cook & Hayden

 

[subshakerz]

@subshakerz I think Greenidge>Boycott is silly

I value peer rep.

 

[Johan]

I value peer rep.

Then even Gower>Greenidge, let alone Geoffrey

 

[subshakerz]

Then even Gower>Greenidge

Not as openers

 

[Johan]

Not as openers

that's a stupid statement, Gower was seen as the best batsman in the world by Australians in 1980s, that's higher peer rep than Greenidge.

 

[DrWolverine]

realistically, Barry is obviously a weird case.

It’s just rep.

Even if he was more talented than even Sachin, I cannot pick him over even Virat Kohli