Barry Richards vs Geoffrey Boycott

[Coronis]

He was very good obviously but I think the English press and fans claim he’s an ATG which he isn’t rated as outside of England

Have never heard this claim. The English press at the time and afterwards it felt like they have still downplayed him.

Bet a lot would say Cook > Boycott

 

[BazBall21]

He was very good obviously but I think the English press and fans claim he’s an ATG which he isn’t rated as outside of England

Boycott is a controversial and polarising figure in English cricket. Wouldn't say he's a press&fans darling by a long shot. Compton for instance was. Cook is etc.

 

[Johan]

All the conversation on Non-Test First Class records made me check Geoffrey's county records against the great bowlers. He played 2 innings against Terry Alderman while 3 against Joel Garner. He played 6 innings against Michael Holding, Kapil Dev, Peter Pollock and Malcolm Marshall each. 5 against Prime Ian Botham which I took as 1977 to 1982, 9 against Garth Le Roux, he played more than ten innings against Michael Proctor, Brian Statham, Richard Hadlee, Bob Willis, Tom Cartwright and John Snow. I'm gonna post his average against them and then put his number of hundreds in the bracket right next to it. We have to remember, Geoffrey mostly played these West Indies pacers and Richard Hadlee when he had crossed 40, and was very young when he played Statham, only Proctor and Snow he faced throughout his career. I don't know if I should've included Tom Cartwright, he was basically 60s/70s Woakes but again, the games were all in England and he was one of the most successful bowlers ever in English first class.

Garner – 264 (2)
Alderman – 163 (1)
Botham – 138 (2)
Snow – 131 (5)
Dev – 104 (3)
Hadlee – 80 (2)
Le Roux – 74 (1)
Holding – 71 (1)
Cartwright – 66 (3)
Statham – 64 (3)
Pollock – 62 (1)
Willis – 56 (3)
Proctor – 55 (2)
Marshall – 47.5 (1)

I will get to the spinners now, it should be noted that until mid 1970s English domestic wickets weren't properly covered and therefore had to probably play on some wet dogs against Deadly Derek Underwood. He played many, many innings with Derek, that also explains why Titmus has the dumb FC record he does.

Gibbs – 164 (3)
Titmus – 94 (4)
Underwood – 49 (3)
Bedi – 37 (0)

Here is a statistical study by CricViz in the performance of English Batsmen against spin bowling.

Joe Root: How To Play Spin in Test Cricket - CricViz

CricViz Analysts Ben Jones & Freddie Wilde examine what makes Joe Root one of the modern game’s best players of spin.

cricviz.com

.

It cites the average of Joe Root against spin bowling as 65, it's from a year or so ago, comparatively it cites that on the international stage, Only Ken Barrington, Walter Hammond and Geoffrey Boycott have higher averages than Joe Root (65) against spin, meaning their averages against spin would have to be beyond 65, likely in the 70 range, really impressive.

 

[Johan]

With the above post regarding Boycott's English FC exploits done, Boycott and Barry shared the stage for many years in English County Cricket, their stats were as follows. When someone tops averages, I'll give them a *

1968
Boycott* – 15 innings, 774 runs @ 77.4, 5 hundreds.
Barry – 47 innings, 2,039 runs @ 48.5, 5 hundreds.

1969
Boycott – 22 innings, 785 runs @ 43.61, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 28 innings, 1,102 runs @ 47.91, 1 hundred.

1970
Boycott – 31 innings, 1,425 runs @ 50.89, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 25 innings, 1,410 runs @ 58.75, 2 hundreds.

1971
Boycott* – 24 innings, 2,197 runs @ 109.85, 11 hundreds.
Barry – 40 innings, 1,628 runs @ 44.00, 1 hundred.

Note – in this season, the second best averaged around 50.

1972
Boycott* – 17 innings, 1,156 runs @ 96.33, 6 hundreds.
Barry – 30 innings, 1,242 runs @ 42.82, 4 hundreds.

1973
Boycott – 13 innings, 505 runs @ 42.25, 2 hundreds.
Barry – 27 innings, 1,239 runs @ 49.56, 4 hundreds.

1974
Boycott – 26 innings, 1,220 runs @ 58.09, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 23 innings, 1,059 runs @ 55.73, 2 hundreds.

1975
Boycott – 33 innings, 1,891 runs @ 72.73, 6 hundreds
Barry – 30 innings, 1,456 runs @ 56.00, 3 hundreds.

1976
Boycott – 22 innings, 1,040 runs @ 54.73, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 34 innings, 1,574 runs @ 49.12, 7 hundreds.

1977
Boycott – 22 innings, 1,097 runs @ 57.73, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 25 innings, 927 runs @ 42.13, 2 hundreds.

1978
Boycott – 19 innings, 968 runs @ 50.94, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 11 innings, 337 runs @ 30.63, 0 hundreds.

1979
Boycott – 15 innings, 1,160 runs @ 116.00, 4 hundreds.

Overall
Boycott – 14,218 runs @ 66, 55 hundreds.
Barry – 14,013 runs @ 48, 31 hundreds.

Barry stopped being good here, arguably stopped being good in 1976 or 1977, and he left English County Cricket, This makes me believe that had he had a full international career, it might've ended similarly to India's Virat Kohli or Australia's Neil Harvey.

He started after Boycott had already been dominating for years and ended in 1978, Boycott kept on playing and played many more county championships. In 1979, Boycott would top the county averages, in 1980, 1983 and 1986 he would average north of 50, in 1982 and 1986 he'd average north of 60 and in 1985 he'd average north of 75.

 

[Coronis]

With the above post regarding Boycott's English FC exploits done, Boycott and Barry shared the stage for many years in English County Cricket, their stats were as follows. When someone tops averages, I'll give them a *

1968
Boycott – 15 innings, 774 runs @ 77.4, 5 hundreds.
Barry – 47 innings, 2,039 runs @ 48.5, 5 hundreds.

1969
Boycott – 22 innings, 785 runs @ 43.61, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 28 innings, 1,102 runs @ 47.91, 1 hundred.

1970
Boycott – 25 innings, 1,425 runs @ 50.89, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 31 innings, 1,410 runs @ 58.75, 2 hundreds.

1971
Boycott* – 24 innings, 2,197 runs @ 109.85, 11 hundreds.
Barry – 40 innings, 1,628 runs @ 44.00, 1 hundred.

Note – in this season, the second best averaged around 50.

1972
Boycott* – 17 innings, 1,156 runs @ 96.33, 6 hundreds.
Barry – 30 innings, 1,242 runs @ 42.82, 4 hundreds.

1973
Boycott – 13 innings, 505 runs @ 42.25, 2 hundreds.
Barry – 27 innings, 1,239 runs @ 49.56, 4 hundreds.

1974
Boycott – 26 innings, 1,220 runs @ 58.09, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 23 innings, 1,059 runs @ 55.73, 2 hundreds.

1975
Boycott – 33 innings, 1,891 runs @ 72.73, 6 hundreds
Barry – 30 innings, 1,456 runs @ 56.00, 3 hundreds.

1976
Boycott – 22 innings, 1,040 runs @ 54.73, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 34 innings, 1,574 runs @ 49.12, 7 hundreds.

1977
Boycott – 22 innings, 1,097 runs @ 57.73, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 25 innings, 927 runs @ 42.13, 2 hundreds.

1978
Boycott – 19 innings, 968 runs @ 50.94, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 11 innings, 337 runs @ 30.63, 0 hundreds.

Barry stopped being good here, arguably stopped being good in 1976 or 1977, and he left English County Cricket, This makes me believe that had he had a full international career, it might've ended similarly to India's Virat Kohli or Australia's Neil Harvey.

He started after Boycott had already been dominating for years and ended in 1978, Boycott kept on playing and played many more county championships. In 1979, Boycott would top the county averages, in 1980, 1983 and 1986 he would average north of 50, in 1982 and 1986 he'd average north of 60 and in 1985 he'd average north of 75.

Almost as big a shame that Boycott made himself unavailable for England for those years as Richards only playing 4 tests. The criticism levelled at say Barrington for career length would also have applied to Richards, had he had a full international career.

 

[Johan]

Almost as big a shame that Boycott made himself unavailable for England for those years as Richards only playing 4 tests. The criticism levelled at say Barrington for career length would also have applied to Richards, had he had a full international career.

Yeah, he'd either stop playing it after barely a decade or so or would go on a long, Harvey-esque decline.

 

[capt_Luffy]

With the above post regarding Boycott's English FC exploits done, Boycott and Barry shared the stage for many years in English County Cricket, their stats were as follows. When someone tops averages, I'll give them a *

1968
Boycott – 15 innings, 774 runs @ 77.4, 5 hundreds.
Barry – 47 innings, 2,039 runs @ 48.5, 5 hundreds.

1969
Boycott – 22 innings, 785 runs @ 43.61, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 28 innings, 1,102 runs @ 47.91, 1 hundred.

1970
Boycott – 25 innings, 1,425 runs @ 50.89, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 31 innings, 1,410 runs @ 58.75, 2 hundreds.

1971
Boycott* – 24 innings, 2,197 runs @ 109.85, 11 hundreds.
Barry – 40 innings, 1,628 runs @ 44.00, 1 hundred.

Note – in this season, the second best averaged around 50.

1972
Boycott* – 17 innings, 1,156 runs @ 96.33, 6 hundreds.
Barry – 30 innings, 1,242 runs @ 42.82, 4 hundreds.

1973
Boycott – 13 innings, 505 runs @ 42.25, 2 hundreds.
Barry – 27 innings, 1,239 runs @ 49.56, 4 hundreds.

1974
Boycott – 26 innings, 1,220 runs @ 58.09, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 23 innings, 1,059 runs @ 55.73, 2 hundreds.

1975
Boycott – 33 innings, 1,891 runs @ 72.73, 6 hundreds
Barry – 30 innings, 1,456 runs @ 56.00, 3 hundreds.

1976
Boycott – 22 innings, 1,040 runs @ 54.73, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 34 innings, 1,574 runs @ 49.12, 7 hundreds.

1977
Boycott – 22 innings, 1,097 runs @ 57.73, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 25 innings, 927 runs @ 42.13, 2 hundreds.

1978
Boycott – 19 innings, 968 runs @ 50.94, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 11 innings, 337 runs @ 30.63, 0 hundreds.

Barry stopped being good here, arguably stopped being good in 1976 or 1977, and he left English County Cricket, This makes me believe that had he had a full international career, it might've ended similarly to India's Virat Kohli or Australia's Neil Harvey.

He started after Boycott had already been dominating for years and ended in 1978, Boycott kept on playing and played many more county championships. In 1979, Boycott would top the county averages, in 1980, 1983 and 1986 he would average north of 50, in 1982 and 1986 he'd average north of 60 and in 1985 he'd average north of 75.

Who the hell topped the averages in 68!?? And how come Barry played 6 more innings and averaged 8 runs more, but still scored less runs than Boycs in 70???

 

[Johan]

Who the hell topped the averages in 68!?? And how come Barry played 6 more innings and averaged 8 runs more, but still scored less runs than Boycs in 70???

Oh Dear, that was a mishap by me in 1970, fixed

1968 was topped by, on a technicality, Ted Dexter as he averaged 144, but he also only played 3 innings so...Yeah, he came back from his bike accident and obliterated Underwood.



Among Batsmen who atleast played 10 innings, Geoffrey is BY FAR the highest, he is at 77, the other bat who crossed 10 innings, is at 48, Barry, Cowdrey is at 46, made 4 to Barry's 5 hundreds in less 1/2 the innings, Boycott has 5 in less than 1/3rd of Barry's games.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Oh Dear, that was a mishap by me in 1970, fixed

1968 was topped by, on a technicality, Ted Dexter as he averaged 144, but he also only played 3 innings so...Yeah, he came back from his bike accident and obliterated Underwood.

View attachment 47842

Among Batsmen who atleast played 10 innings, Geoffrey is BY FAR the highest, he is at 77, the other bat who crossed 10 innings, is at 48, Barry, Cowdrey is at 46, made 4 to Barry's 5 hundreds in less 1/2 the innings, Boycott has 5 in less than 1/3rd of Barry's games.

Think should atleast put 10 innings as a minimum qualifier imo

 

[Johan]

Think should atleast put 10 innings as a minimum qualifier imo

If that's the case, I'd give Boycott the * for three seasons.

 

[capt_Luffy]

If that's the case, I'd give Boycott the * for three seasons.

Btw still haven't fixed 70 I think

 

[Johan]

Btw still haven't fixed 70 I think

That is right.

 

[Prince EWS]

With the above post regarding Boycott's English FC exploits done, Boycott and Barry shared the stage for many years in English County Cricket, their stats were as follows. When someone tops averages, I'll give them a *

1968
Boycott* – 15 innings, 774 runs @ 77.4, 5 hundreds.
Barry – 47 innings, 2,039 runs @ 48.5, 5 hundreds.

1969
Boycott – 22 innings, 785 runs @ 43.61, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 28 innings, 1,102 runs @ 47.91, 1 hundred.

1970
Boycott – 31 innings, 1,425 runs @ 50.89, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 25 innings, 1,410 runs @ 58.75, 2 hundreds.

1971
Boycott* – 24 innings, 2,197 runs @ 109.85, 11 hundreds.
Barry – 40 innings, 1,628 runs @ 44.00, 1 hundred.

Note – in this season, the second best averaged around 50.

1972
Boycott* – 17 innings, 1,156 runs @ 96.33, 6 hundreds.
Barry – 30 innings, 1,242 runs @ 42.82, 4 hundreds.

1973
Boycott – 13 innings, 505 runs @ 42.25, 2 hundreds.
Barry – 27 innings, 1,239 runs @ 49.56, 4 hundreds.

1974
Boycott – 26 innings, 1,220 runs @ 58.09, 3 hundreds.
Barry – 23 innings, 1,059 runs @ 55.73, 2 hundreds.

1975
Boycott – 33 innings, 1,891 runs @ 72.73, 6 hundreds
Barry – 30 innings, 1,456 runs @ 56.00, 3 hundreds.

1976
Boycott – 22 innings, 1,040 runs @ 54.73, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 34 innings, 1,574 runs @ 49.12, 7 hundreds.

1977
Boycott – 22 innings, 1,097 runs @ 57.73, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 25 innings, 927 runs @ 42.13, 2 hundreds.

1978
Boycott – 19 innings, 968 runs @ 50.94, 4 hundreds.
Barry – 11 innings, 337 runs @ 30.63, 0 hundreds.

Barry stopped being good here, arguably stopped being good in 1976 or 1977, and he left English County Cricket, This makes me believe that had he had a full international career, it might've ended similarly to India's Virat Kohli or Australia's Neil Harvey.

He started after Boycott had already been dominating for years and ended in 1978, Boycott kept on playing and played many more county championships. In 1979, Boycott would top the county averages, in 1980, 1983 and 1986 he would average north of 50, in 1982 and 1986 he'd average north of 60 and in 1985 he'd average north of 75.

A Bradmanesque run for 41 innings in two years, that's wild.

 

[Johan]

A Bradmanesque run for 41 innings in two years, that's wild.

Yup, Especially that 1971 season is Bradman-esque in a very true sense, so many capable bats like Sobers/Kanhai/Barry/Fredericks/Lloyd/Cowdrey didn't even hit 50 that year.

 

[Bolo.]

I find the ongoing campaign to denigrate Barry on the basis of CC batting average kinda funny. Yes, Boycott, and numerous others, have better batting averages in CC. CC is Barry's single worst one, where he still averaged 50s.

But if we are judging purely off average in single competitions, Barry has the highest ever RSA domestic average, 70s average in tests and WSC, and 100s average in AUS domestic. This single competition average thing would make Barry the BAB, very clearly.

Anyway, Boycott still wins this one. Longevity and test career.

 

[Johan]

I find the ongoing campaign to denigrate Barry on the basis of CC batting average kinda funny. Yes, Boycott, and numerous others, have better batting averages in CC. CC is Barry's single worst one, where he still averaged 50s.

less about denigrating Barry and instead comparing them on the one stage they shared as AFAIK Geoffrey never played in South African FC and I think Australian FC was easier than both of them, I think Geoffrey in 1971 also averaged 100 in the Australian non-Test FC games. largely my point was that Geoffrey has just as expansive and impressive an FC career as Barry.

if you look at their overall First Class numbers, Geoffrey has 40,000 @ 59 while Barry has 27,000 @ 54, over a much smaller period.

 

[Coronis]

less about denigrating Barry and instead comparing them on the one stage they shared as AFAIK Geoffrey never played in South African FC and I think Australian FC is easier than both of them, I think Geoffrey in 1971 also averaged 100 in the Australian non-Test FC games. largely my point was that Geoffrey jas just as expansive and impressive an FC career as Barry.

Boycott’s 1970/71 tour of Australia

5 tests 10 innings 657 @ 93.85 2 tons 5 50’s

7 tour matches 12 innings 878 @ 97.56 4 tons 2 fifties

Boycott missed a test in the 6 match series, so Edrich and Stackpole ended up closer to him in total. He vastly outscored them both outside the tests.

That was also Barry’s famous Australian season. It should perhaps be noted that many of the South Australian bowlers were right at the top in averages and wickets. (Hammond, Freeman, McCarthy)

 

[Bolo.]

less about denigrating Barry and instead comparing them on the one stage they shared as AFAIK Geoffrey never played in South African FC and I think Australian FC was easier than both of them, I think Geoffrey in 1971 also averaged 100 in the Australian non-Test FC games. largely my point was that Geoffrey has just as expansive and impressive an FC career as Barry.

if you look at their overall First Class numbers, Geoffrey has 40,000 @ 59 while Barry has 27,000 @ 54, over a much smaller period.

The one stage they shared was Barry's worst, and you would come to a different conclusion if they played a different competition together.

Anyway, I reckon purely on longevity I'd also have Boycott ahead in FC. Clearly not without factoring longevity in though. Barry's record across competitions is way too impressive.

I don't really know enough about Boycott in FC though. I've got little issue with his test SR as an opener. 3 day games can turn a lot of innings into quasi ODIs though. Ive got no idea if he played FC to match situation or engaged in average boosting.

 

[sayon basak]

The one stage they shared was Barry's worst, and you would come to a different conclusion if they played a different competition together.

Worst overall, or worst among the stages they shared? I mean, are you counting rebel tours as a stage for Barry?

 

[Johan]

The one stage they shared was Barry's worst, and you would come to a different conclusion if they played a different competition together.

Anyway, I reckon purely on longevity I'd also have Boycott ahead in FC. Clearly not without factoring longevity in though. Barry's record across competitions is way too impressive.

I don't really know enough about Boycott in FC though. I've got little issue with his test SR as an opener. 3 day games can turn a lot of innings into quasi ODIs though. Ive got no idea if he played FC to match situation or engaged in average boosting.

It's hard for me to say, I'm not fully aware of the standards in South African FC and know enough of the Australian one to know that the Australian ones were real runfests but I largely compared their CC records because, as I said, it's the one both individuals shared for an extended period of time, if it was indeed Barry at his worst, well then that's too tragic and shows we shouldn't base FC career on the basis of one competition.

Geoffrey's longevity is very impressive, Barry finished up in South Africa by 1976 and England by 1978 and was declining badly by/after 1976 while Geoffrey was a FC freak well into his 40s and averaging 60+ in 80s county, even topping averages one year, and obviously he started being a FC elite almost 5 years before Barry.

I don't think he particularly did average boosting but moreso he was batting for a pretty weak Yorkshire line-up, and opening on top, so it was acceptable that he chose to play slower than others.

I also think that they actually bowled more overs in County Matches than the three day implies they did, generally it's 90 overs a day so three days should output to around 270 overs total but you'd see they commonly over 320 overs so effectively it was more than three day games.