Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Marshall
McGrath
Barnes (Ik he's old)
Hadlee
Are the four best imo, followed by Steyn and Ambrose, then Imran, then Lillee/Trueman/Donald/Wasim/Garner/Holding, all can be put in any order
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Best away stretch of pacers with 25+ away tests or 125 wickets
- Thread starter Randomfan
- Start date
McGrath
Barnes (Ik he's old)
Hadlee
Are the four best imo, followed by Steyn and Ambrose, then Imran, then Lillee/Trueman/Donald/Wasim/Garner/Holding, all can be put in any order
centurymaker
Cricketer Of The Year
India were indeed minnows until early 1960s.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
When you look at all aspects.
Statistical, both raw and deep dives, eg. value of wicket, top order wickets %, consistent success home and away, with top tiered away performances. Paired with peer and pundit recognition and bowlers who were the best of their respective eras...
There's only two guys who covers all of those criteria, well three if you include your guy Barnes. Marshall, McGrath and Barnes.
Ambrose, Steyn and Hadlee do come up next, but just fall a little short with regards to a couple categories.
Bumrah had a legitimate chance to join them, and that's why those are the only 4 genuine candidates in the GOAT debate IMHO.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
The only time India were really minnows was maybe the 1930s, and had two world class medium pacers even then
centurymaker
Cricketer Of The Year
Wrong.
India didn't win a single test match until 1952. India would routinely get thrashed against the likes of Australia, England and West Indies. Till 1961, India had only won two test series in its history, both at home. But only against fellow minnows- vs Pakistan 1952 and vs New Zealand 1955.
Even in the entire 1960s, India managed to win only one test series against the BIG 3. But started drawing more. So overall thats when you can actually consider them to be growing out of being minnows.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Oh, I didn't know losing to England and Australia makes you a minnow, my bad. Not like they had 3 45+ averaging bats in England in 1946, or that the likes of Mankad, Gupte and Ghulam were legit good bowlers
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
What does make you a minnow? The answer seems to differ for every person.
centurymaker
Cricketer Of The Year
According to this logic, Bangladesh are not minnows since late 00s because they have had Shakib, Tamim, Mushfiqur, Mahmudullah etc. Great. But you are amongst the first ones to remove stats vs minnows when comparing players.
India's record vs Aus, Eng, WI pre 1960:
1 W, 26 L
In 1960s:
5 W, 20 L
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
They haven't been minnows since early or mid 2010s at most.According to this logic, Bangladesh are not minnows since late 00s because they have had Shakib, Tamim, Mushfiqur, Mahmudullah etc. Great. But you are amongst the first ones to remove stats vs minnows when comparing players.
India's record vs Aus, Eng, WI pre 1960:
1 W, 26 L
In 1960s:
5 W, 20 L
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
team with terrible players.
Team with good players is still a minnow team unless they start winning. Team results defines Team status.
If many good players taken together have not won even 5 tests in entire history for a specific nation then that team is a minnow. You can praise players but not the team. Players may have produced results but team did not.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Nope, a minnow team is non competitive and lacks test standard players, if you're competitive (even if lose) and have world class players (let alone test class) then Yeah, you're not a minnow side.
A team can play for 50 years without winning tests then it's a minnow team and it does not make any differnece how many test class or world class players that team has at different times. You got to start winning to get out of minnow status. Team can go through phases but if in entire history team has not won then that's a certified minnow team.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree.
Fuller Pilch
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bumrah needs to perform against NZ. He has 2 tests here in Oct/Nov 2026. Pre Xmas batting conditions are the toughest, so if he doesn't average sub 20, it would be very disappointing for India.
I don't know when NZ will next tour India for tests, but India will probably want 4 instead of 3 and the hype will be bigger than against Aus or Eng, so he might get one more chance at home.
It seems Lara agrees with you. He was asked to put 8-10 players ( list seemed random) players in 3 tiers.
He put McGrath, Bumrah, Kallis and Gilly together in GOAT tiers. I wouldn't put him there yet due to shorter career but quality wise right up there with those guys. It was in some podcast. Lara was generous and did not put anyone in bottom tier, lol.