Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Nah, Hobbs is the clear Best after Bradman, combine the peak of Viv and the longevity of Sachin and you get Hobbs, Sachin–Hutton–Viv–Sobers following it but never really having a true argument to be better than Hobbs.
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How much does scoreboard pressure benefit bowlers?
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
Thala_0710
International Captain
Hobbs has a good argument to be no 2. But he's not really clear of Tendulkar
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Anyone of Hobbs, Hutton, Viv, Tendulkar, Sobers and even Smith have an argument to be 2, but Hobbs has easily the strongest one from an objective perspective.
Thala_0710
International Captain
There's no objective clear answer to that.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
There will never be, but as far as I am concerned, a modern batsman probably needs to average around 60 for 20-25 years to maybe have a case over Hobbs.
Thala_0710
International Captain
That's just.... I don't even know
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
what? he played 22 years, averaged 55+ while opening, played in a nightmare era in his prime, there's absolutely nothing absurd about my view.
Thala_0710
International Captain
Which is matched by being the greatest teenage cricketer of all time, avging 57+ over a period of 22 years and 175 tests. Being tested in more conditions, great knocks and most hundreds against ATG bowlers, + the factors in this thread.
Which reminds me we should probably get back to the topic in hand of the thread and not derail it
Coronis
Hall of Fame Member
Thats why the millionaire could afford to give away all those runs
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Nah, Hobbs's feats as an old man are even more absurd than Sachin's as a teenager. That 57 average goes down back to 52-53 once minnows are removed, tough luck. ATG bowlers are more than counteracted by toucher pitches, and ofcourse, opening tax comes into play too. Overall, Sachin clearly biting more than he can potentially chew.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
A proper Bazball intent spinner, give away runs but also take wickets consistently.
Thala_0710
International Captain
It's 54 which is basically what Hobbs avged vs Aus as well. The opening tax and tougher pitches I agree with. Sachin teenage feats getting bettered by Hobbs' own old age feats I don't agree with though.
Again I've argued this in detail in the Tendulkar vs Hobbs thread. No point in repeating it here
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Hobbs didn't play any minnow bowling attacks except maybe 1920s South Africa, so that is a moot point, his non minnow average is 56.95 IE 57. Even if Old man feats don't beat out, it cancels out the teenage feats, arguably era tax exceeds bowling attacks tax but even if it cancels out – we are really left with a 54 average middle order bat against a 57 average opener.
Also, you brought them up.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
alright changing topics...
Do we also reckon we should boost bowlers with bad batting lineups? I mean, Imagine a good flat wicket and a team puts 380~ and that's the par score, team following is bowled out by 180~ and leaves a 200 run lead, second team comes to bat and now the bowlers are forced to bowl from basically 200/0 without any fault of them, would be really demoralising.
Do we also reckon we should boost bowlers with bad batting lineups? I mean, Imagine a good flat wicket and a team puts 380~ and that's the par score, team following is bowled out by 180~ and leaves a 200 run lead, second team comes to bat and now the bowlers are forced to bowl from basically 200/0 without any fault of them, would be really demoralising.
HeathDavisSpeed
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
How much of it is scoreboard pressure and how much is due to keeping the opposition out in the field for longer, draining the energy and potentially making a top order breakthrough easier. Referenced the Lara 400 test yesterday and England's reply was poor (other than Thorpe) and I suspect a good chunk of that was due to having been kept out in the field in the heat for 200 overs. Their 2nd innings - under very similar scoreboard pressure - was much more reflective of the flatness of the pitch.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Can't be objective if you can't see him but anyways
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I agree. I think that first spell is most challenging as bats are simply mentally exhausted.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
you didn't follow Viv's or Sobers's career either, doesn't stop you from discussing them.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I do watch their innings to at least know what the hype was about
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Perception of quality of Cricket in YouTube videos can be and has been subjective. I can easily bring the same Barru footage Kyear uses to praise him, being mocked in other forums.