Your ATG team pace bowling trio

[OverratedSanity]

Oh and also regardless, for the hundredth time

For all the accomplishments and accolades of the rest, Donald, Holding, Lindwall etc, aren't of the level of a first AT team selection, and neither would Imran without his batting.

This is not true for many of us.

 

[Cipher]

76 had a very good middle order and certainly better than the mid 80s side Marshall faced. When you say 'aside from Greg Chappell' I don't know what to say, he was their best bat in the era and Marshall never played him whereas Imran had to.

You are right I forgot the 82 series for Marshall. I also forgot the 78 series for Imran so Imran still played stronger India 19 tests to Marshall's 14 tests.


Again, Marshall getting out the best bats more often is offset by him facing weaker lineups more often than Imran and even Hadlee.

Imran faced stronger lineups more than half his bowling tests, Marshall around 1/4th.

And as for the breakdown of best bats, it's not even clearcut if Marshall is well ahead of Imran.

Gavaskar dismissed 11 times by Imran, 8 times by Marshall. Vengsarkar 10 times by Imran, 9 times by Marshall. Vishwanath 5 times by Imran, twice by Marshall. Amaranth 7 times by Imran, 6 times by Marshall.

Marshall definitely did better vs Border, 11 to 4, but nearly twice as many tests so it's closer. Imran's never faced Gooch I think but Imran dismissed Gower 6 times in 7 games, Marshall 6 times in 20 games.

Which other bats would you like to compare with? Neither faced Martin Crowe enough for it to be significant.

Let's talk about their best bat of respective teams in Pak WI contests. Marshall dismissed Miandad three times in 11 tests. Imran dismissed Viv five times in 14 tests.

So really, Marshall doesn't have a claim to be better at targeting best bats over Imran. What we do know is Imran faced stronger lineups more.

Yes the middle order was McCosker, Chappell & Walters. Those 3 I said earlier were test standard or better.
But lets compare them to the '84 side in Australia's batsman: WI vs Australia MCG
Wessels>McCosker
Hughes<Chappell
Border>Walters
Not certainly better than '84.

Yes because I've been saying the whole time that he didn't play against Chappell, that's the one major difference between the sides they faced. Imran was not bowling to an entire top 6 of 40+ average batsmen compared to Marshall. When you say Imran faced stronger Australian lineups it's not the entire batting lineup, it's just Chappell.

I don't think bowling against weaker lineups should mean that getting out their best batsman is any less of an accomplishment. It's like getting out Len Hutton or Brian Lara for their respective teams.

I find it hard to justify that Khan was bowling to stronger lineups considerably more than Marshall during a decade that had fairly evenly matched sides (AUS, ENG, NZ, IND, PAK), 1 dominant (WI) & 1 minnow (SRI) - which Marshall didn't play but Imran did.

As I already pointed out earlier Gavaskar was bowled out for less more often by Marshall. If you count the times he was dismissed for 20 runs or less, Imran got him out cheaply 5 times. Marshall got him out cheaply 7 times. This was despite playing him less.
No Vengasarkar was dismissed 10 times by both Imran (18 games) & Marshall (16 games) - better ratio.

Gundappa Viswanath? Marshall didn't get him out at all actually. I think it's too critical to judge it off 3 innings in 1978/79 where Marshall was given his debut while still raw due to the main quicks playing WSC. Same way I don't think Imran should be judged for 1971 or 1974 performances, he was still raw. But where are you getting your numbers from? It doesn't seem to be statsguru test numbers.
Again look at the matches played, Marshall played 9 games against Amaranth to Imran's 14. That's another better ratio + more 20 runs or lower dismissals.

Marshall got Border out 11 times (19 Matches) to Khan's 4 times (13 Matches where he bowled) yes.
19 matches to 13 matches is not "nearly twice as many tests", that would be closer to 26 matches. So it's not closer, he's better in this matchup too.

Yes Imran did perform better against Gower I will grant you that.

With regards to Miandad, I'll add some context. 2 of those tests in 1990 Marshall was now 1st change rather than opening the bowling. Considering the quick fall of wickets & how few balls Miandad faced it's quite likely he didn't even face Marshall in those games.
So its really more 3 times in 9 tests. Still not a great ratio but also bear in mind that Miandad was a beneficiary of Pakistani umpiring, he even boasted to Steve Waugh "Don't bother appealing. This is my land, my rules". Pretty much all of the tests Miandad played against Marshall was at home bar two (When away Marshall got him out twice). He was never given out LBW against the WI. All that said, Marshall could have done better against him. Imran got Viv out 4 times in one series where he was out of form & only once after that. He averaged 58.35 against Pakistan after that '77 series. How Imran would have faired against Miandad in the test arena we do not know, that's why I think comparing batsmen they both played and dismissed is better to assess the bowlers skill.

So aside from Gower & Imran getting Viv out 2 extra times (which isn't a direct comparison) Marshall still had slightly or noticeably better results against Gavaskar, Vengasarkar, Amaranth & Border. But enough about player comparisons. How about a simple question.

Marshall is considered to be the greatest fast bowler of all time by many fans, players & critics alike.
Does that not mean he would be the best option to get a batsman out?

 

[smash84]

Yes Imran had a lower average, it was also highly influenced by a disproportionate record at home, which in turn was highly influenced by the shenanigans that was associated with that.
He's not nearly rated as the best, 2nd best, 3rd best or even by some, the 4th best bowler of the era and he's never listed by batsmen when asked about the best bowlers of said era.

The WI team was indeed a great team before him, but during the streak when they elevated themselves to the greatest team of all time during the all conquering era, he wasn't only the best and most impactful player, and the best bowler in the world, but when he was absent the team simply wasn't the same.

No one's calling the other bowlers mugs, but he's very arguably the best and greatest bowler of all time, he has the a combination of skill set and and all round record in all conditions unmatched by any other bowler.

So while he isn't a cheat code, no member of an AT team would be with the possible exception of Bradman and Sobers, and he's still the best of all the available options to be the spear head.

The top 10 fast bowlers very arguably aren't that close in quality. There's a clear top 3 (or 4 if including Barnes) but imho, there's a 2 man race for GOAT with Hadlee arguably joining them in the top tier. Steyn's record is no nearly as well rounded, wasn't as versatile, and could be loose at times. Ambrose and Imran were on the higher range for strike rates, according to some having "penetration issues" , Imran also wasn't nearly the same bowler away from Pakistan, and we're aware of what benefits Pakistan offered him, and lacked the versatility of a viable or consistent away swinger to assist in those away conditions. The truth is that the only country that he's been consistently great in is Pakistan, arguably England. Lillee had minimal away exposure and with the conditions that he did have, his numbers very arguably should have been better. Wasim probably had more challenges than any other pacer, but he too had a slightly skewed record in some facets, but with a strong peer rating.
For all the accomplishments and accolades of the rest, Donald, Holding, Lindwall etc, aren't of the level of a first AT team selection, and neither would Imran without his batting. So the narrative that the top 10 are so very close has just been an empty narrative that's been parroted for a while now.

As far as the 14 runs of batting goes. In such a team as I've referenced previously, it's very arguable how much that should factor into selection when you have such a lineup, to select bowlers who simply aren't the absolute best.

And finally with regards to your team, it's extremely interesting how you did advocate and vote for McGrath previously only to change your vote this very week to make this point. He wasn't a rabbit all along?

In a team where you have the absolute greatest batsmen and batting lineup of all time: Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers etc etc

1. Why are we focusing on batting so heavily for the bowlers

2. Doesn't the wicket takers, who actually win games brw, not also deserve to have the absolute best at that as well?

Why is it a one way philosophy? Since when has the importance of bowlers been diminished?

Given the chance, is Australia kicking McGrath for Imran during their run? India kicking Bumrah for Imran? No.... I would go as far as to suggest that Australia wasn't swapping Lillee either, I can definitively say the same for the Windies and Marshall as well. That's your opening bowler and most important and key member of your team, why does it value less now?

In any event, the poll here, despite your vote change, is pretty conclusive.

I won't address your points about Imran at all because you've admitted that you falsify his actual position in your ATXIs just to get back at certain posters.

Secondly, I am not sure why I chose McGrath in the first place because I have been advocating bat deep for a long time. I may have not given the matter much thought but my ATXI will have Hadlee ahead of McGrath.

 

[kyear2]

As bowlers, I have Hadlee slightly ahead of Marshall. But very much same tier.

Both are distinctly ahead of Imran as bowlers. But the gap isn't as big as some make out.

I pick all 3. They are the three best players, and an attack that complements each other extremely well. I don't see them as competing for a spot. To drop any of them, you have to make big sacrifices in some combination of bowling quality/batting quality/variety. Without much as compensation.

But I do reckon Marshall is clearly not as good a player as the other two.

Distinctly ahead means that there are better bowlers than Imran and as a bowler alone he isn't being picked as a bowler alone.

I can very easily argue that if you aren't getting picked as a bowler alone, then you shouldn't be at all.

And it's strange that you mention sacrifice, when you're clearly making a bowling sacrifice in bowling to include Imran.

And to even mention a sacrifice in batting when discussing a bowling attack relied upon to bowl out the opposition is counter initiative.

So to be absolutely clear, for a bowling attack that's playing for a championship and responsible for taking 20 wickets, you're more willing to make a sacrifice with regards to the bowling more so for the batting? Even when said batsman is batting at no. 11.

With regards to the Marshall being "clearly not as good a player as the other two"

I would say that one was universally seen as the best bowler in the world from the time he took the new ball, which happens to coincide with the careers of the other two. He's also widely acknowledged as the greatest bowler of all time, with only Lillee, Barnes, and of late McGrath even being mentioned as alternatives by varying constituencies.

We can also look at the amount of AT teams where either are selected above him. Are they any? I also find it hard to rationalize a bowler thanks ranked by most at best in the lower echelons of the top ten, being a greater player than the one ranked as the best. By such logic, Hammond, Kallis, Chappell, Lara, Ponting are all greater than Sachin. In fact just put every all rounder ahead of every specialist.

 

[kyear2]

He faced stronger attacks? Where? WI? Thats the only team Imran faced that Malcolm didn't and couldn't.

And the WI lineup in '88, the one which they base his record on was a distinctly weaker one than even in '84.

It's wasn't an AT it even great lineup at that point.

 

[Thala_0710]

I'd make the swap on each of these tbh and am confident it'd probably have won these teams more games on average. Arguably with the exception of Bumrah (not because Bumrah is better or anything, but just because India had stupidly good batting depth already with Ashwin and Jadeja).

I don't think so tbh. Barring Lillee for Imran, I wouldn't make the change for any of the other teams.
You don't change the best bowler ever in Marshall, who consistently wins you games, with any other bowler. Same for Bumrah who consistently wins us matches away, and would have had won us even more if we had a half decent batting line up in the last 5 years (no Imran's batting wouldn't change it, you'd need a Tendulkar level bat to do it). And same is the case for Australia, why do you need a bowlers batting so much when you've already got Gilly at 7. Mcgrath's bowling away from home (and at home) and especially getting top order wkts, is just too valuable to them that they wouldn't swap him for Imran.

 

[kyear2]

Batting wise they'd probably be comparable to 80s Australia and New Zealand. I cbf looking up the averages but the batsmen I mentioned are solid batsmen.

They were not.

They were outright minnows when Hadlee and Imran faced them.

And re averages, pretty sure Pakistan averaged more than the WI in the 80's

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't think so tbh. Barring Lillee for Imran, I wouldn't make the change for any of the other teams.
You don't change the best bowler ever in Marshall, who consistently wins you games, with any other bowler. Same for Bumrah who consistently wins us matches away, and would have had won us even more if we had a half decent batting line up in the last 5 years (no Imran's batting wouldn't change it, you'd need a Tendulkar level bat to do it). And same is the case for Australia, why do you need a bowlers batting so much when you've already got Gilly at 7. Mcgrath's bowling away from home (and at home) and especially getting top order wkts, is just too valuable to them that they wouldn't swap him for Imran.

I disagree on the basis of my opinion that Imran as a bowler would win close to as many games in those teams as Marshall and McGrath did anyway.

 

[kyear2]

Slifer's already answered this but if we compare them during the 80's & remove WI & Sri Lanka from Imran's record (which is fair because Marshall didn't play against them), Marshall has a better average in the same period.
It's arguable that Imran did bowl to a slightly better Australian batting lineup earlier on but for a bit of context he only bowled in 3 games in Australia during the 80's. Both of them bowled to Border, Hughes, Wood & Dyson (4 out of 6 batsmen in the early to mid 80's). Greg Chappell was of course the main difference for Khan. Marshall played India only 3 games less & performed much better against them.

But when I claimed Marshall was better at getting out top order batsman it wasn't about his averages, it was about specific batsman he was dismissing. He got out Gavaskar more cheaply, Border more often, Vengsarkar the same amount from 2 matches less. He got Kim Hughes out 5 times from 8 matches compared to Khan's 3 from 12 matches. He also got Martin Crowe out whereas Khan could not in any format.

I'm sure there are batsman that Khan bowled better to than Marshall but when I see that he got better results against recognised batsman out of respective teams (Gavaskar, Border, Hughes etc.) & also got good batsman such as Gooch & Boon out quite often that's why I think he was better at getting the best out a little bit more.

All of that plus the fact that no one rated Imran on par with Marshall during that era. Certainly not the batsmen.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

But the whole argument @kyear2 is making is that considering Imran's batting as a plus and picking him over Marshall/McGrath/Hadlee, hell even over Dennis Lillee is wrong.

You seem to agree with me that taking Imran's batting into account here is very valid, then?

I do.

 

[Thala_0710]

I disagree on the basis of my opinion that Imran as a bowler would win close to as many games in those teams as Marshall and McGrath did anyway.

He wouldn't away from home, no

 

[Thala_0710]

This is just during Imran's career away from home. The rest have clearly better WPM/SR too barring Akram (and Walsh ofc)

 

[Thala_0710]

View attachment 47748
This is just during Imran's career away from home. The rest have clearly better WPM/SR too barring Akram (and Walsh ofc)

If you run the same for all time, Imran doesn't make the top 20, despite some others playing in a more batting friendly era too. Hence I can't have him in my AT XI as one of the 3 primary pacers.

 

[smash84]

If you run the same for all time, Imran doesn't make the top 20, despite some others playing in a more batting friendly era too. Hence I can't have him in my AT XI as one of the 3 primary pacers.

Imran has match winning performances across countries. Still has more 5fers and 10fers than many bowlers in that list. Unless you're doing analysis by check list they list doesn't really show him to be as bad as you're probably thinking.

Unless you think like a certain poster on here who thought Ambrose was ATG in Pakistan because he had 14 wickets in 4 matches in Pakistan but at a low average.

 

[Thala_0710]

Imran has match winning performances across countries. Still has more 5fers and 10fers than many bowlers in that list. Unless you're doing analysis by check list they list doesn't really show him to be as bad as you're probably thinking.

Unless you think like a certain poster on here who thought Ambrose was ATG in Pakistan because he had 14 wickets in 4 matches in Pakistan but at a low average.

The thing is others have better and more consistent performances. Marshall and Hadlee have the same/more no of 5fers/10fers as Imran does, while the others have simply played less games.
No Ambrose isn't ATG in Pak, but in this list it's not really the case. Even if you look at WPM, SRs etc, Imran is quite low in the list. If you go series by series performances, almost everyone has good performances in multiple nations but the really top guys are consistent throughout.
Even with all this, I keep Imran in my top 10 bowlers of all time, but there's a big gap between him and the top 4/5 guys especially, which is why I can't have him as one of the 3 front line pacers in my AT XI.

 

[Thala_0710]

If I'd make a case for Imran to be in the XI, I'd actually focus more on the fact that you have the 2 greatest new ball bowlers ever already in Marshall and McGrath and Imran is one of the greatest exponents of reverse swing, and hence will be lethal with the older ball and complement the two opening bowlers very well, rather than focusing on his batting.

 

[smash84]

The thing is others have better and more consistent performances. Marshall and Hadlee have the same/more no of 5fers/10fers as Imran does, while the others have simply played less games.
No Ambrose isn't ATG in Pak, but in this list it's not really the case. Even if you look at WPM, SRs etc, Imran is quite low in the list. If you go series by series performances, almost everyone has good performances in multiple nations but the really top guys are consistent throughout.
Even with all this, I keep Imran in my top 10 bowlers of all time, but there's a big gap between him and the top 4/5 guys especially, which is why I can't have him as one of the 3 front line pacers in my AT XI.

Who are the top 5 guys who have great performances across many nations that are significantly better than Imran? 2 would be Marshall and McGrath? Then Hadlee? Who are the other ones? Ambrose,? Steyn? Why do you think the gap is big?

 

[kyear2]

Correct.

View attachment 47736

Sri Lanka vs Pakistan Individual Batsmen by comparison

View attachment 47737

View attachment 47738

That's really kinda minnow level though.

 

[kyear2]

Why do you keep repeating strawman arguments like this?

It's literally your only argument.

 

[Thala_0710]

Who are the top 5 guys who have great performances across many nations that are significantly better than Imran? 2 would be Marshall and McGrath? Then Hadlee? Who are the other ones? Ambrose,? Steyn? Why do you think the gap is big?

Marshall McGrath Hadlee Steyn and Bumrah away from home are all significantly better. Ambrose is better too but the gap is less