Ranking the Auxiliary skills in test cricket

[kyear2]

I would just like to point out that the biggest value of a solid #8 or tailender is not their own runs, but the runs they create by being able to stick around with an established batsmen.

It's just as often with fellow tailenders as well. And again, the consistency is considerably less than it is for top order batsmen, and the example given above is the one who's seen as among the best, not the average no. 8

And I've seen genuine tailenders hang in with top end batsmen as well in several memorable run chases.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

And I've seen genuine tailenders hang in with top end batsmen as well in several memorable run chases.

And boy do I love it when they do. I was almost willing to forgive Tim Southee for not making the most of his batting during his career when he finally pulled out a vital and largely sensible innings in the India series last year.

That was before the Magical Farewell Tour, mind.

 

[subshakerz]

It's just as often with fellow tailenders as well. And again, the consistency is considerably less than it is for top order batsmen, and the example given above is the one who's seen as among the best, not the average no. 8

And I've seen genuine tailenders hang in with top end batsmen as well in several memorable run chases.

Yeah but a better no.8 like Philander can stick around even longer. A poor tail can't be guaranteed to stick around at all regularly.

You never address how important Lee and Warne were for guys like Waugh and Gilly to be effective in late innings bashing for the great Aus side.

 

[subshakerz]

I'll try to keep this short, but I try to look at these scenarios from real world realities and no tail consistently gives an additional 50 runs per match. Most no. 8's didn't routinely bat twice a match so the added batting often isn't utilized.

SA in the 90s and India recently are example of elite tails.

And it's much more frequent for the tail to bat than for slips to save catches that would otherwise go missed.

I'm going to use Imran for a bit, not to disparage, but becuse he was the best, and mind you, considerably above the mean.

Don't use Imran.

Ever since you falsified your ATG XI for him, you aren't objective at all when discussing him.

 

[Coronis]

It's just as often with fellow tailenders as well. And again, the consistency is considerably less than it is for top order batsmen, and the example given above is the one who's seen as among the best, not the average no. 8

And I've seen genuine tailenders hang in with top end batsmen as well in several memorable run chases.

Well, no its not. Using your example of Marshall and Imran…

Marshall would face approximately 33 balls an innings. Imran would face approximately 63 balls an innings. Assuming the set batsman is facing at least 50% of those deliveries, that’s a substantial difference in amount of runs gained.

 

[kyear2]

Well, no its not. Using your example of Marshall and Imran…

Marshall would face approximately 33 balls an innings. Imran would face approximately 63 balls an innings. Assuming the set batsman is facing at least 50% of those deliveries, that’s a substantial difference in amount of runs gained.

To start off, there's a lot of assuming there.

Also for someone who on average scored 10 more runs an innings, over the period of '74 to ''88, double the amount of deliveries seems a bit much.

It's just as likely that those 50% of deliveries are faced by fellow members of the tail.

And then again, of the ATGs he's among if not the best, and not remotely what would be presented by the average no. 8.

But since you're chiming in, and following the conversation, what are your thoughts?

 

[Coronis]

To start off, there's a lot of assuming there.

Also for someone who on average scored 10 more runs an innings, over the period of '74 to ''88, double the amount of deliveries seems a bit much.

It's just as likely that those 50% of deliveries are faced by fellow members of the tail.

And then again, of the ATGs he's among if not the best, and not remotely what would be presented by the average no. 8.

But since you're chiming in, and following the conversation, what are your thoughts?

All I’m assuming is that a hypothetical middle order batsmen who is already set would face at least 50% of the deliveries. Not that crazy of an assumption surely?

 

[subshakerz]

To start off, there's a lot of assuming there.

Also for someone who on average scored 10 more runs an innings, over the period of '74 to ''88, double the amount of deliveries seems a bit much.

It's just as likely that those 50% of deliveries are faced by fellow members of the tail.

And then again, of the ATGs he's among if not the best, and not remotely what would be presented by the average no. 8.

But since you're chiming in, and following the conversation, what are your thoughts?

Again, don't talk about Imran please because you fudge your facts.

Please tells me how India with Jadeja/Ashwin/Patel and or South Africa with Klusener/Pollock/Symcox don't get more bang for their buck than and elite cordon.

 

[kyear2]

All I’m assuming is that a hypothetical middle order batsmen who is already set would face at least 50% of the deliveries. Not that crazy of an assumption surely?

And all I'm saying is that it's just as likely the no. 8 or 9.

And never known you not to have an opinion.

 

[reyrey]

Worth considering that slip catching is the easiest of the 3 skill to become proficient at and improve.

An average slip cordon can usually become pretty good cordon if they dedicate enough time to practice.

 

[subshakerz]

Worth considering that slip catching is the easiest of the 3 skill to become proficient at and improve.

An average slip cordon can usually become pretty good cordon if they dedicate enough time to practice.

Yes easier than ground fielding perhaps.

 

[kyear2]

Worth considering that slip catching is the easiest of the 3 skill to become proficient at and improve.

An average slip cordon can usually become pretty good cordon if they dedicate enough time to practice.

And that is something that I highly disagree with.

Rolling over your hand as a 5th bowler.is easily the easiest.

Root, Head, Steve Waugh, Border, Viv filled that role.

And averaging late teens or 20 odd with the bat isn't a massive task. Imran with the time during injuries and late career reduction of bowling raised his batting average by 5 runs the last 3 and half years of his career. McGrath of all people improved his batting with some help from Waugh near the end of his career. A lot, and I mean a lot of improvement in event years of lower order batting has just come down to want to and application.

The 'proficient" guys in the slips are the ones that have a case of the dropsies more often than one would like, and all of the practice in the world can't elevate the proficient guys to where they're taking the blinders and half chances the greats do.

Don't know why the concept that it's a specialist position and you just can't out anyone in there and expect the same results. Kohli has been there for ever and practices, he's still never been special, far less elite. Mitchell is proficient and still has untimely drops.

Yes, practice is a must, but it's the natural talent... reflexes, co-ordination, concentration, anticipation, and soft hands that you either have for the most part or you don't. Same for the AT batsmen and bowlers.

 

[subshakerz]

And that is something that I highly disagree with.

Rolling over your hand as a 5th bowler.is easily the easiest.

Root, Head, Steve Waugh, Border, Viv filled that role.

And averaging late teens or 20 odd with the bat isn't a massive task. Imran with the time during injuries and late career reduction of bowling raised his batting average by 5 runs the last 3 and half years of his career. McGrath of all people improved his batting with some help from Waugh near the end of his career. A lot, and I mean a lot of improvement in event years of lower order batting has just come down to want to and application.

The 'proficient" guys in the slips are the ones that have a case of the dropsies more often than one would like, and all of the practice in the world can't elevate the proficient guys to where they're taking the blinders and half chances the greats do.

Don't know why the concept that it's a specialist position and you just can't out anyone in there and expect the same results. Kohli has been there for ever and practices, he's still never been special, far less elite. Mitchell is proficient and still has untimely drops.

Yes, practice is a must, but it's the natural talent... reflexes, co-ordination, concentration, anticipation, and soft hands that you either have for the most part or you don't. Same for the AT batsmen and bowlers.

I think there are a heck of a lot more good slip fielders than bowling ARs and batting ARs.

 

[reyrey]

And that is something that I highly disagree with.

Rolling over your hand as a 5th bowler.is easily the easiest.

Root, Head, Steve Waugh, Border, Viv filled that role.

Apart from Steve Waugh at the start of his career, those names are all part timers. I wouldn't any of put them in the 5th bowler category.


The most recent examples of 5th bowlers would be Stokes, Green, de Grandhomme, Watson types.

 

[reyrey]

Yes, practice is a must, but it's the natural talent... reflexes, co-ordination, concentration, anticipation, and soft hands that you either have for the most part or you don't. Same for the AT batsmen and bowlers.

Most successful batsman have those traits as it's needed for batting. That's why finding decent slip fielders isn't that difficult. It becomes a matter of practice.

 

[subshakerz]

Apart from Steve Waugh at the start of his career, those names are all part timers. I wouldn't any of put them in the 5th bowler category.


The most recent examples of 5th bowlers would be Stokes, Green, de Grandhomme, Watson types.

It's a heck of a lot easier to be a competent slipper than a bowler or bat.

 

[kyear2]

Apart from Steve Waugh at the start of his career, those names are all part timers. I wouldn't any of put them in the 5th bowler category.


The most recent examples of 5th bowlers would be Stokes, Green, de Grandhomme, Watson types.

Those part timers all filled the role of 5th bowlers though, that's the point. Greg Chappell etc etc. as well.

I'll phrase it this way.

If practice elevated average cordons to very good, we wouldn't have as many average cordons as we do today, and through out history.

And there's countless stories of bowlers getting into the nets and improving their ability to stay at the cease. They're not world beaters but they hang around longer.

I'll use AT names here, but only discussing their secondary traits.

Hammond is one here where it was well litigated that he's below all rounder status. Same with guys like Cummins or Marshall.

On the average test team, or even a hypothetical above. I am more comfortable with. Hammond as my fifth bowler, and a Marshall / Wasim / Warne / Cummins at no. 8, than I would be with a Kohli / Khawaja at 2nd slip for my team.
Hammond isn't going to actively hurt the team (Subz even has him in his 2nd all time team as the all rounder) in any way and will pick up the odd wicket, the batsmen I mentioned have all filled that role in tests for successful teams and performed the job more than admirably. I do need a specialist at 2nd though, too many chances go there.

To put a bow on it, and this may be only me..for a regular team, I'm more willing to make a bit of a sacrifice to have a Richie Richardson at 5, over say an Inzamam in my batting lineup, than I would be willing to have an all out 5th bowling all rounder (as I've argued for a while now) like say a Miller over Hammond for a 2nd AT XI. Because if Miller is your 5th option, you've got the bowling covered and you're loosing too much in the batting.

 

[kyear2]

Most successful batsman have those traits as it's needed for batting. That's why finding decent slip fielders isn't that difficult. It becomes a matter of practice.

If it's not that difficult, where are they?

 

[reyrey]

If it's not that difficult, where are they?

They are everywhere. Take opening batters for example (2 in each team) How many end up operating in the slips vs say bowlers?

Also it's pretty amusing your cut off for slips when it comes to what's "decent", but when it comes to 5th bowler anyone who rolls their arm over counts.

 

[subshakerz]

Also it's pretty amusing your cut off for slips when it comes to what's "decent", but when it comes to 5th bowler anyone who rolls their arm over counts.

Yeah clearly he isn't being consistent in standards here.

There are objectively more competent slip catchers than competent 5th bowlers or no.8s. don't see how that can be debated.