The value of ATG specialist bowlers vs bowling AR's/bowlers who can bat (picking the strongest all time XI)

[kyear2]

Learned something new about trundler today.

 

[kyear2]

This was a great post for a new poster.

I wonder if he will ever return to CW after this experience.

The irony of this post.

 

[kyear2]

As you can see, the distinct lack of any and all response to a serious post with reasonable points and facts.

So these posts get ignored but he’ll whine and say I only post sarcastic snippets in response to him.

I wonder why I would often post those when there’s not a response to a serious post?

You do know that I don't live on here.

And I've responded to you. But you're just eager to attack.

 

[subshakerz]

And it's not because it's Imran, there's genuine reasons as to why he's not my first choice. But that's immaterial, because he can bat. And the part that's most infuriating in this discussion.

I gave reasons as to why I prefer Wasim over him, that wasn't even referenced.

Simple question.and stop dodging: would you pick Wasim if he couldn't bat and was a genuine tailender?

 

[Cipher]

This was a great post for a new poster.

I wonder if he will ever return to CW after this experience.

Thankyou, honestly I welcome debate because it helps me form a better understanding of the game we all love.

It seems that kyear is seen as something of a villain by others here but he’s fine by me. You can disagree with some of his points but it is not easy to argue against a multitude of posters alone. Plus if he didn’t argue his opinion this thread would have been a lot more boring.

The discussions have me rethinking my bowling attack & I’m considering making a new thread arguing the exact opposite to help form my ATG side.

Here’s hoping that next thread remains civil & on point for at least 3 pages

 

[Coronis]

You do know that I don't live on here.

And I've responded to you. But you're just eager to attack.

Mate it had been the best part of a day and you’d responded to multiple other threads, usually not continuing an ongoing discussion, looking from that perspective, you can see how it looks like you were deliberately ignoring it, right?

 

[kyear2]

Mate it had been the best part of a day and you’d responded to multiple other threads, usually not continuing an ongoing discussion, looking from that perspective, you can see how it looks like you were deliberately ignoring it, right?

Then tag me, I don't ignore legitimate questions or remarks.

 

[kyear2]

Thankyou, honestly I welcome debate because it helps me form a better understanding of the game we all love.

It seems that kyear is seen as something of a villain by others here but he’s fine by me. You can disagree with some of his points but it is not easy to argue against a multitude of posters alone. Plus if he didn’t argue his opinion this thread would have been a lot more boring.

The discussions have me rethinking my bowling attack & I’m considering making a new thread arguing the exact opposite to help form my ATG side.

Here’s hoping that next thread remains civil & on point for at least 3 pages

Yes, welcome again, and thanks for the kind words.

Yeah, it's supposed to be fun while sharing views on the game we all love. But we can't ever, far less always have the same perspective or see the game the same.

Anyways, nice to have a fresh and enthusiastic voice on the forum.

 

[Coronis]

There are some who have intimated, even suggested that based purely on Pigeon's batting ability, he isn't viable for selection for such an XI. I just think to eliminate the best bowler from an AT World team, based purely on his batting when he's going to be coming in at no. 11, shows you're somewhat missing the plot. But that's my opinion.

I never didn't understand, I disagree. And it's not because it's Imran, there's genuine reasons as to why he's not my first choice. But that's immaterial, because he can bat. And the part that's most infuriating in this discussion. It's similar to when we were discussing the wicket keepers, and think it was Luffy who said something crazy along the lines of, even if Pant misses chances, he'll make it up with runs. That's not how it works, and under no scenario on Earth that I would ever select Pant over Knott, Healy or even Evans if I needed a keeper. This is a way less extreme scenario of that, as Imran is of course way closer in this comp. But at least discuss the merits of the bowling, rather than saying even if he doesn't perform with the ball, he'll make it up with the bat. I gave reasons as to why I prefer Wasim over him, that wasn't even referenced. Its a dumbed down discussion with the most idiotic trope of everyone has to bat.

And to be clear, I didn't expect everyone to agree, but the confidence and ridicule of the vocal minority on this is honestly surprising, considering that, that's what they are.

When I reference that there's literally no teams in existence that includes both Imran and Hadlee, I mean outside of CW. Teams from former players, historians, writers, pundits... Teams that are based on watching and playing against said players, factoring in nuance and a finer understanding of the game, and not reducing it to what looks better on a spread sheet. How is it that in all the XI's that we've seen, listed, critiqued and laughed at, that they've never made any together. Though to be fair, I think I've ever only seen Hadlee in two, though Imran makes a bit more.

This is but one example.

Martin Crowe played on the same team as Hadlee, and still rates Marshall, Lillee and Wasim ahead of him. I've never read anyone include him in the actual GOAT debate or make the argument for it.

There's plenty of players that were never rated by the pundits, but especially by the players during their career, but we'll after they are elevated. Sunny is one, Hadlee another, so were Sutcliffe and Barrington. Those are the things I also look at, including how or where they took their wickets or scored their runs, the impact they made etc etc.

Anyways I've already given enough reason for you to make remarks about the length of the response and enough fodder for others to do their thing.

Which posters suggested that?

If you understand then why do you continue to argue and try to push your viewpoint as the only correct one, which is how it often comes across in your debates, rather than accepting others different views. If someone said its viable for them (which is most definitely a perfectly valid and reasonable viewpoint) can’t you just say something like “I see your point, I just don’t think Imran is that close.” Rather than posting giant paragraphs trying to force the point?

You say you don’t expect everyone to agree, but the way you post implies that you do. Perhaps something to work on so there aren’t misunderstandings in the future?

I mean obviously like you say, we critique and laugh at many of those but yeah, its not the popular opinion, but many opinions on here are unpopular in the greater cricketing world. Its definitely a viable thing though. And as I’m sure you know, you consider peer ratings/media/pundits a lot more than many people here.

 

[Coronis]

Then tag me, I don't ignore legitimate questions or remarks.

I mean the quote of a post notifies too, so unless I’m not quoting I don’t tag people needlessly.

 

[kyear2]

I mean the quote of a post notifies too, so unless I’m not quoting I don’t tag people needlessly.

Was honestly stuck on one post for the better part of the day as I was out and about. Didn't see it.

 

[kyear2]

Which posters suggested that?

If you understand then why do you continue to argue and try to push your viewpoint as the only correct one, which is how it often comes across in your debates, rather than accepting others different views. If someone said its viable for them (which is most definitely a perfectly valid and reasonable viewpoint) can’t you just say something like “I see your point, I just don’t think Imran is that close.” Rather than posting giant paragraphs trying to force the point?

You say you don’t expect everyone to agree, but the way you post implies that you do. Perhaps something to work on so there aren’t misunderstandings in the future?

I mean obviously like you say, we critique and laugh at many of those but yeah, its not the popular opinion, but many opinions on here are unpopular in the greater cricketing world. Its definitely a viable thing though. And as I’m sure you know, you consider peer ratings/media/pundits a lot more than many people here.

You do realise that I'm the one who's consistently asked to justify my selections.

And I'm not sure which posts you were reading, but they are the ones consistently telling me that mine are wrong.

At the end of the day I have a writing style that may not suit all, but I prefer to thoroughly communicate my thoughts.

It's not forcing the point, it's defending mine, from about 4 posters at once, each with the same insistence that since they agree, that I somehow can only come to this conclusion because, and we had some good ones.

I hate Imran, and it's obviously personal

I hate Imran because he nearly defeated us in '88

I'm biased against S/ C players.

Or Smali just being an ass for the better part of a decade, because I refuse to bend the knee.

i would reference the other one, but he's on ignore again, and it's not worth it.

If you were dealing with that, you would defend yourself as well.

And yes, I do value peer and critic opinions higher, because at the end of the day, we've never seen these guys. It's rely on stats or try to understand why some were rated higher than others, it less than said stats would indicate. I prefer to read than to pretend that I know better about someone I've never seen, over people who have, it even played against them.

 

[Coronis]

You do realise that I'm the one who's consistently asked to justify my selections.

And I'm not sure which posts you were reading, but they are the ones consistently telling me that mine are wrong.

At the end of the day I have a writing style that may not suit all, but I prefer to thoroughly communicate my thoughts.

It's not forcing the point, it's defending mine, from about 4 posters at once, each with the same insistence that since they agree, that I somehow can only come to this conclusion because, and we had some good ones.

I hate Imran, and it's obviously personal

I hate Imran because he nearly defeated us in '88

I'm biased against S/ C players.

Or Smali just being an ass for the better part of a decade, because I refuse to bend the knee.

i would reference the other one, but he's on ignore again, and it's not worth it.

If you were dealing with that, you would defend yourself as well.

And yes, I do value peer and critic opinions higher, because at the end of the day, we've never seen these guys. It's rely on stats or try to understand why some were rated higher than others, it less than said stats would indicate. I prefer to read than to pretend that I know better about someone I've never seen, over people who have, it even played against them.

I think the perceived Imran hate, whether its accurate or not, is in part due to bringing him up in discussions where he is not a player being discussed. Similarly this is why people think you have bias towards certain players.

You don’t need to change your posting style, I’m just trying to give you some constructive criticism since you did say “why is this wrong?” and often seem like you’re confused as to why multiple people respond negatively to some of your posts.

I really think sometimes, you just have to accept that other people have different opinions certain things and move on, rather than belabouring on specific points.

 

[kyear2]

I think the perceived Imran hate, whether its accurate or not, is in part due to bringing him up in discussions where he is not a player being discussed. Similarly this is why people think you have bias towards certain players.

You don’t need to change your posting style, I’m just trying to give you some constructive criticism since you did say “why is this wrong?” and often seem like you’re confused as to why multiple people respond negatively to some of your posts.

I really think sometimes, you just have to accept that other people have different opinions certain things and move on, rather than belabouring on specific points.

Where we see things differently is that the points are belabored to me and I respond.

There's a bully culture where it's believed that if you have multiple people coming at you, that they can shut you down and you'll be quiet. I don't subscribe to that.

The person who don't like me, wouldn't, but if you're going to actively dislike someone over the course of a decade because of their take on a player, that's on you.

A very simple and straight forward example. I disagree with your ranking of Viv, and your ranking is wayyyy lower than mine of Imran. Do i express dislike of hatred towards you because of it? No, that would be asinine.

So while I see and appreciate your point, If I read something I disagree with, or I believe is patently false, I'll argue it.

 

[Coronis]

Where we see things differently is that the points are belabored to me and I respond.

There's a bully culture where it's believed that if you have multiple people coming at you, that they can shut you down and you'll be quiet. I don't subscribe to that.

The person who don't like me, wouldn't, but if you're going to actively dislike someone over the course of a decade because of their take on a player, that's on you.

A very simple and straight forward example. I disagree with your ranking of Viv, and your ranking is wayyyy lower than mine of Imran. Do i express dislike of hatred towards you because of it? No, that would be asinine.

So while I see and appreciate your point, If I read something I disagree with, or I believe is patently false, I'll argue it.

I mean you do you man, but expect to keep getting the same pushback from people.

 

[kyear2]

I mean you do you man, but expect to keep getting the same pushback from people.

It doesn't bother me.

If there are people here, and they are, that come after everything I post because of personal dislike, you think backing down and not responding is going to make a difference?

No, the level of pettiness to hold a grudge for the better part of 12 years isn't going away that easily.

 

[subshakerz]

It doesn't bother me.

I mean, it obviously does since you make a big deal of it. Otherwise why would you fabricate your ATG XI?

There's a bully culture where it's believed that if you have multiple people coming at you, that they can shut you down and you'll be quiet. I don't subscribe to that.

You clearly desire the attention for some odd reason whereas most of us want to move on.

 

[smash84]

Kyear2 acting a martyr wasn't in my bingo card for the day.

 

[smash84]

I really think sometimes, you just have to accept that other people have different opinions certain things and move on, rather than belabouring on specific points.

Me and multiple other posters have been telling him the exact same thing. Every time he has been given good reasons for rating Imran high he will either ignore them or come down to home umpires and ball tampering saying that Imran was a cheat. Well, then just call him a cheat and move on. Don't rate him at all. Trying to argue that he's a cheat but slots in at number 8 and then trying to prove like it's a 100 percent consensus is what gets him so much ****. Or things like deliberately fudging his ATXI just to spite some posters is the kind of dishonest behavior that earns him flak (and rightly so).

 

[kyear2]

Me and multiple other posters have been telling him the exact same thing. Every time he has been given good reasons for rating Imran high he will either ignore them or come down to home umpires and ball tampering saying that Imran was a cheat. Well, then just call him a cheat and move on. Don't rate him at all. Trying to argue that he's a cheat but slots in at number 8 and then trying to prove like it's a 100 percent consensus is what gets him so much ****. Or things like deliberately fudging his ATXI just to spite some posters is the kind of dishonest behavior that earns him flak (and rightly so).

Because you don't seem to grasp that not everything is black and white.

I think he was a fabulous bowler and he had some inspiring tours overseas, and as he himself has intimated, it still takes skill to reverse the ball, even after he butchered it.

But the thing though is that he did, and that can't be ignored either. You would prefer me to, but that all impacts his rating and legacy, nor to mention passing it down...

The home umpiring thing he can't be blamed for directly, nor do I, but it impacted his numbers even more, not least because of how allowing they were with the again, treatment of the ball.

Everyone has their own ratings, I think as a bowler alone he's around 8th, but notably closer to the likes of Lillee, Donald and Wasim, than he is to the top 6 or 6, certainly the top 5.

It's not so much that I don't acknowledge your arguments as much, as you disagree with mine and would like me to stop sharing them.

With regards to him being 8th here, it is and has been the consensus, so don't know why me saying that would piss you off. There's been several ranking exercises and votes, and way too many polls to mention where that's been the result over the past decade.

Subz consistently says things like Imran's a consensus top 5 if not top 3 player on CW, many say the same thing about Hobbs or Tendulkar, you're only allowed to say it if it's something you agree with? And no one's calling it gospel, but it is fact.

The strangest things bother you.

And I didn't fudge anything, you and Subz can whine all you like, Subz made an excellent point (think we were arguing about Hammond over Kallis for a 2nd team), and I agreed.

Let's see if I can make this make sense to you.

Hadlee, Ambrose, Steyn and Murali is for me, easily a better and more balanced attack than Imran in there. With Hadlee there, there's less need for Imran's batting at 8, and Steyn's reverse swing also negates Imran's advantage of reverse. Hand on heart, when I did it, that was the best team.

Last week when updating my list, and despite how amusing Subz can be, there were a couple things.

1. He is too great a player to slide into the 3rd
2. With Knott as keeper, there's a stronger argument for him at 7 or 8
3. The team needed a captain (same reason Smith is over Greenidge in the 3rd)

But that's my point, I shouldn't have to give anyone serious answers for these things, nor explain everything I post here.

And this part is really uncalled for, but I really don't care at this point.

Me potentially fudging an XI in your eyes in this forum bothers your self righteous self so very much, but Imran cheating for a decade then passing it down, doesn't? This bothers you, but the fact that Javed wasn't given out LBW at home for the first decade of his career and Imran got every decision he appealed for, is just cricket and should be ignored, doesn't?

That's the bullshit and hypocrisy and selective self righteousness that blows my mind.