The value of ATG specialist bowlers vs bowling AR's/bowlers who can bat (picking the strongest all time XI)

[Johan]

Lowkey, Kyear and Subs can debate how to solve world hunger and the conversation will still come down to Imran Khan and Barry Richards.

 

[Johan]

I rate Barry higher than Sunny, so did everyone from the 70's. This isn't just me. ORS has told stories about how Sunny was a fair weather batsman and that Barry was better. You hear that from the bowlers as well.

@OverratedSanity got any stories to share?

 

[subshakerz]

When I say Bradman wasn't twice the batsman that guys like Sachin, Hobbs or Richards are it's based partially on logic and the fact that the gray man encountered the perfect storm and took full advantage. But also because the people who actually saw him and Hobbs bat, rated them as equals. And as Peterhrt has repeatedly said, that was the accepted perception of the day up until the the 60's. But we automatically assume we know better be cause we can read a spreadsheet.

Yet you have Bradman in your ATG XI and not Hobbs. Lol. So you care about that opinion so much but not enough to trust Hobbs.

 

[subshakerz]

Lowkey, Kyear and Subs can debate how to solve world hunger and the conversation will still come down to Imran Khan and Barry Richards.

I've been trying not to talk about Imran much with him but he ropes me in.

 

[sayon basak]

You literally said it was your duty to down grade Ambrose.

Could you share the post please where he states that explicitly? I never saw the post.

 

[subshakerz]

There is literally absolutely no part of this even worth responding to.

Just want to point out the hilarity of starting your post like this and then writing the longest post perhaps in CW history

 

[kyear2]

Look I think it was Coronis who mentioned first you may have a defensiveness bias towards WI cricketers. I didn't think much of it, but honestly it would explain why you react the way you do towards anyone pointing out a weakness of Marshall and Ambrose and Viv and Lara. And why Imran who did best against WI has to be downgraded a bit.

As for Imran, Kimber who you respect so much clearly has him in the ATG XI and treats him as a given. Other experts don't. But he clearly has a high enough rep that he can fit there without anyone raising a fuss, except you.

You have him in your third ATG XI despite claiming you see him as a top ten cricketer. The only way I can explain that is bias.

Like how Coronis has a defensive bias against English and Australian cricketers? The older the better?

As I said, no one did better against us than Punter and McGrath. Hutton did extremely well against us, loved him to death from the first time I read about him, doing well against us.

Ambrose could be too defensive at times, primarily after his surgery. But he always maintained control and was an ATG till the end.

Lara was too inconsistent, but when he was son, he's the best batsman I've ever seen. I still rate him below Smith. I rate Viv below Sachin, even though the more one looks at Sachin's career, the more it's not quite what it's cracked up to be. Sobers bowlers himself too damn much and as a result batted way too much at 5 and 6. That's why I rate him below Viv and Sachin.

Marshall was the most complete cricketer I've ever seen. Forget the numbers, watch him bowl, evaluate the skill set that he possessed, the impact that he had. and then at how he mastered most conditions and how adaptable he was. I make no apologies for that opinion either.

And no, you want to believe that's why I'm critical of Imran, despite the fact that I've repeated told you why. And I still only have 9 players rated ahead of him, all time. I have no desire to downgrade anyone.

Dude he's in my 2nd XI, my teams are literally updates every 6 months and was done last week and he's still there in the 2nd one. You can literally check in the ATG thread.

The part that bothers me about you, Smali, the XI idiot and short pitched, is that I'm painted as the only one who doesn't think that Imran isn't a walk in for the AT team, when there's been an active poll about the ideal attack for the AT XI, taking into account batting and Imran is tied 4 with 30% of the vote and is almost doubled up by McGrath.

I'm not the only one, in fact I'm in the majority, I'm just the one who entertains these discussions.

I can give you all of the reasons in the world, but for me personally Imran doesn't make mine because of two major reasons. I don't trust him away from home and he was limited by being a primarily and predominantly an inswing bowler. That's limiting in most scenarios. Wasim could move it both ways, old ball and new, and was better overall with the old ball.
What the hell is wrong with that?

But you have to believe that it's something personal, because surely there's no reason he can't be there. I'm not the one in the minority.

And yes, from comments I believe his team is likely Marshall, McGrath and Imran, he's a statistician. He also thinks Barry was the best and post war he goes with Barry and probably Sunny if he's not prodded by Bumble.
Does that impact your perception of Barry?

 

[kyear2]

Lowkey, Kyear and Subs can debate how to solve world hunger and the conversation will still come down to Imran Khan and Barry Richards.

Wait, that isn't the solution?

 

[Johan]

Like how Coronis has a defensive bias against English and Australian cricketers? The older the better?

Have you seen that **** talk about Compton and Harvey!?

 

[ataraxia]

I like ATG bowlers who can bat because they score runs instead of not doing so.

 

[kyear2]

Yet you have Bradman in your ATG XI and not Hobbs. Lol. So you care about that opinion so much but not enough to trust Hobbs.

I haven't seen him, and I don't rate players before WWI. He's the exception, because of how damn good he was.

But my team, and you know this, because I've said it enough times, is based on if I were to select a team to today take on any squad and win. Who I trust to be able to face and take on any bowlers in any scenario or conditions. I know how Hobbs did in 1914, I'm not sure how that translates to how cricket is played today. I trust Barry more.

The same way Akram is a specialist pick, so is Barry. There's 3 things I want from my opener and he has them all.

 

[kyear2]

I've been trying not to talk about Imran much with him but he ropes me in.

You literally initiated this conversation.

 

[subshakerz]

Like how Coronis has a defensive bias against English and Australian cricketers? The older the better?

So you admit you have a bias. Great.

Dude he's in my 2nd XI, my teams are literally updates every 6 months and was done last week and he's still there in the 2nd one. You can literally check in the ATG thread.

You did put him in your third team though before that. It's inexcusable and embarassing.

The part that bothers me about you, Smali, the XI idiot and short pitched, is that I'm painted as the only one who doesn't think that Imran isn't a walk in for the AT team, when there's been an active poll about the ideal attack for the AT XI, taking into account batting and Imran is tied 4 with 30% of the vote and is almost doubled up by McGrath.

Yes many go for Hadlee. But none of us care about them or debate them. We argue with you because your arguments are weak and contradicting.

And yes, from comments I believe his team is likely Marshall, McGrath and Imran, he's a statistician. He also thinks Barry was the best and post war he goes with Barry and probably Sunny if he's not prodded by Bumble.
Does that impact your perception of Barry?

If I recall Kimbers first reservation when Barry was mentioned was that he played just four tests.

 

[subshakerz]

You literally initiated this conversation.

You brought my name up constantly.

 

[OverratedSanity]

@OverratedSanity got any stories to share?

My dad and some old uncles thought he was a bit fair weather. My grandpas think it's a nonsense narrative.

 

[subshakerz]

I haven't seen him, and I don't rate players before WWI. He's the exception, because of how damn good he was.

Then why are you using secondary quotes as a source of authority on Hobbs vs Bradman if you don't trust that to rate Hobbs as good enough to bat in your XI?

 

[ataraxia]

My dad and some old uncles thought he was a bit fair weather. My grandpas think it's a nonsense narrative.

@kyear2 you're wrong see OS's grandpas for proof.

 

[ataraxia]

Hobbs v Bradman is actually a great example of awful peer ratings. There's a good 30 runs per innings between them yet it was a massive debate back in the day. Cricketers are biased and innumerate.

 

[kyear2]

Could you share the post please where he states that explicitly? I never saw the post.

Ambrose has been overrated on this forum too long. We have to knock him down a peg. Same as we did with Kallis the all-rounder.

The agenda has always been there for Imran's closest bowling and all rounder competitor.

I don't make this up.

 

[kyear2]

Have you seen that **** talk about Compton and Harvey!?

Have to be a bit slow as well.

Sutcliffe, Barrington.

Think he believes he defending the underappreciated.