Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

[kyear2]

We should get neutral robots with a neutral AI designed by a neutral country to replace umpires at some point.

Just do it like the linesmen replacements in the tennis majors.

Just keep a human out there to keep the game flowing..

 

[kyear2]

If you're going to pick a batting AR who could be better than Imran, go to Sobers, not Kallis. Sobers actually was a bowler rather than a part-timer like Kallis.

I just want to come back to this though.

I will maintain that Kallis was a proper 5th or even 4th bowler and a legitimate all rounder.

We don't hold bowling all rounders to front line batting standards, why is Kallis being held to the standard of a full front line bowler.

The all rounder provides relief and is there to assist with the rotation and break partnerships. He did that to perfection and was well handled and manged.

Sobers on the other hand was horribly mismanaged, primarily by himself, and it impacted his batting. 40 overs a match is ridiculous for the best batsman on your team.

Kallis was well managed and maintained and it extended his batting career and it kept him on the field longer where he was still.profucribe with the bat, breaking partnerships and catching everything at slip.

 

[shortpitched713]

The worst part of that NZ series was in an interview about it Hadlee was like, oh well, but they don't have to respond like that.

That was outright, blatant, one way traffic, cheating. With bat and ball for the series.

Speaking of umpiring cheating and Kiwis, they copped it too. One thing forgotten about the 1981 ODI referred to as the "underarm match", is that earlier in the Aussie innings of a match that would end up going to the wire, the New Zealand fielder Snedden took and claimed a catch, that video replay (not useable to change a decision) showed he caught. Umpires claimed they didn't see, but that's nonsense, as in that case you'd go by the fielder's word. They just presumably took the batsman Chappell's word instead, who stayed rooted to the spot. Even Benaud on commentary stated it was an obvious, straightforward catch. But the umpires decided to cheat the Kiwis out of it.

Anyway, cheating umpires was a part of the culture of cricket back in those non neutral umpire days, and unless there is significant evidence otherwise it seems foolish when there are some blatant examples across the board to think that any country was immune from it's temptation.

Catch is at about 7:25 in above video.

 

[subshakerz]

But two decisions in one match isn't cheating.

Was more than that and iirc the umpire later admitted he was worried about crowd response if he gave the decisions the other way.

 

[subshakerz]

We don't hold bowling all rounders to front line batting standards,

You do. All the time. Hence why you keep critiquing Imran's RPI even though it's fine.

 

[Xix2565]

I just want to come back to this though.

I will maintain that Kallis was a proper 5th or even 4th bowler and a legitimate all rounder.

We don't hold bowling all rounders to front line batting standards, why is Kallis being held to the standard of a full front line bowler.

The all rounder provides relief and is there to assist with the rotation and break partnerships. He did that to perfection and was well handled and manged.

Sobers on the other hand was horribly mismanaged, primarily by himself, and it impacted his batting. 40 overs a match is ridiculous for the best batsman on your team.

Kallis was well managed and maintained and it extended his batting career and it kept him on the field longer where he was still.profucribe with the bat, breaking partnerships and catching everything at slip.

I'm valuing bowling over batting though as skills. That's why I rate Imran's dominance as a bowler over Kallis's as a batter, and why I don't value Kallis the bowler who never showed up as a proper frontline bowler, while Imran had a period where he could be at least a middle order bat. Sobers being that great with the workload he had is to his credit. I don't see why I should have to give Kallis credit for not being better in general.

 

[ankitj]

Kallis Vs Imran

Who is the better cricketer?

www.cricketweb.net

Jacques Kallis vs Imran Khan

Probably the two best all rounders after Sobers. Who was the better cricketer as we already know Kallis was the better batsman and Imran was the better bowler.

www.cricketweb.net

 

[subshakerz]

I'm valuing bowling over batting though as skills. That's why I rate Imran's dominance as a bowler over Kallis's as a batter, and why I don't value Kallis the bowler who never showed up as a proper frontline bowler, while Imran had a period where he could be at least a middle order bat. Sobers being that great with the workload he had is to his credit. I don't see why I should have to give Kallis credit for not being better in general.

I agree with you overall on valuing Imrans bowler over Kallis' batter dominance. It's why he is a better cricketer.

However, to be fair to Kallis, he was often used until the mid 2000s as a 3rd or 4th bowler. He was certainly that quality as a bowler when he bowled that stage.

However, it was sporadic and he still ended up with a bowling load of just over 20 overs a game even in his peak period. Which is why Sobers is a better bowler.

 

[kyear2]

I'm valuing bowling over batting though as skills. That's why I rate Imran's dominance as a bowler over Kallis's as a batter, and why I don't value Kallis the bowler who never showed up as a proper frontline bowler, while Imran had a period where he could be at least a middle order bat. Sobers being that great with the workload he had is to his credit. I don't see why I should have to give Kallis credit for not being better in general.

The important part there is that Imran had a period, which was mostly after he wasn't quite the same bowler.

Kallis's role was never that of a Frontline bowler, he was a batting all rounder, how hard is that to decipher?

 

[Xix2565]

The important part there is that Imran had a period, which was mostly after he wasn't quite the same bowler.

Kallis's role was never that of a Frontline bowler, he was a batting all rounder, how hard is that to decipher?

It's a less valuable role he had along with the lower workload in general. Is that impossible for you to grasp? Be serious here.

 

[kyear2]

It's a less valuable role he had along with the lower workload in general. Is that impossible for you to grasp? Be serious here.

Hold on.

Kallis wasn't a front line bowler, Imran wasn't a top order batsman. Up to the end of 1988 where we're told we should rate him as a bowler, he batted at no. 6, a total of 9 times.

What increased load are we talking about?

 

[Bolo.]

It's a less valuable role he had along with the lower workload in general. Is that impossible for you to grasp? Be serious here.

Kallis did more bowling than Imran.
About 5 times more batting.
And about 7 times more catches.

How do you come to the conclusion that his workload was lower?

 

[Xix2565]

Kallis did more bowling than Imran.
About 5 times more batting.
And about 7 times more catches.

How do you come to the conclusion that his workload was lower?

Kallis played far more games and bowled less per game than Imran. And I don't think catches or batting are on the same level as bowling in Tests, even combined. I'll take Imran in a Test all day over Kallis for what he brings to the table.

Hold on.

Kallis wasn't a front line bowler, Imran wasn't a top order batsman. Up to the end of 1988 where we're told we should rate him as a bowler, he batted at no. 6, a total of 9 times.

What increased load are we talking about?

Load per game? Are you illiterate again?

 

[Bolo.]

Kallis played far more games and bowled less per game than Imran. And I don't think catches or batting are on the same level as bowling in Tests, even combined. I'll take Imran in a Test all day over Kallis for what he brings to the table.

You don't think total bowling load counts for quicks? I remember when Steyn announced he was cutting back on pace, he said it was because the body only had a certain amount of deliveries in test cricket, not cos he was bowling too much per match. And Steyn is another bowler who Kallis bowled more than. Kallis wouldn't have needed to cut his bowling workload if he was playing fewer tests.

I agree that workload is tougher for a quick than the other disciplines, but you can't just say 'no impact' from everything else. Are we gonna say that some random quick with a 1 test 2 wicket career had a higher workload than Lara?

On a game by game basis, Imran does about 40% more bowling than Kallis. Kallis does about 200% more batting. And a million % for slips. The difference in these numbers is stark.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

The worst part of that NZ series was in an interview about it Hadlee was like, oh well, but they don't have to respond like that.

That was outright, blatant, one way traffic, cheating. With bat and ball for the series.

Lloyd, Holding, and Croft should've received bans for their behaviour on that tour.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Australia wasn't cheating during the 1980s.

At least, I hope not - because if we were cheating and were still that bad, that's just embarrassing.

Australian umpires won them the 87/88 Trans Tasman trophy

Morrison to McDermott was one of the plumbest LBWs of all time

 

[kyear2]

Kallis played far more games and bowled less per game than Imran. And I don't think catches or batting are on the same level as bowling in Tests, even combined. I'll take Imran in a Test all day over Kallis for what he brings to the table.


Load per game? Are you illiterate again?

Alright, you're just being a jackass, so I'll exit this conversation.

 

[subshakerz]

On a game by game basis, Imran does about 40% more bowling than Kallis. Kallis does about 200% more batting. And a million % for slips. The difference in these numbers is stark.

Bowling is simply a more intense workload for the same time. And he had the load of captaincy as well

 

[Xix2565]

You don't think total bowling load counts for quicks? I remember when Steyn announced he was cutting back on pace, he said it was because the body only had a certain amount of deliveries in test cricket, not cos he was bowling too much per match. And Steyn is another bowler who Kallis bowled more than. Kallis wouldn't have needed to cut his bowling workload if he was playing fewer tests.

I agree that workload is tougher for a quick than the other disciplines, but you can't just say 'no impact' from everything else. Are we gonna say that some random quick with a 1 test 2 wicket career had a higher workload than Lara?

On a game by game basis, Imran does about 40% more bowling than Kallis. Kallis does about 200% more batting. And a million % for slips. The difference in these numbers is stark.

I don't count it that much when Kallis didn't take a lot of wickets and bowled about 18 overs less per game overall. At a certain point, longevity doesn't matter much when it comes to bowling impact and value.

No, because we're discussing players who've played 88 and 166 Tests respectively. If you want me to rate a one Test guy over Lara it's not happening because that makes no sense.

Alright, you're just being a jackass, so I'll exit this conversation.

Good for you, not like you contributed much anyway.

 

[subshakerz]

We don't need to over think it.

On primary, Imran is simply better as a bowler than Kallis as a bat.

And their secondary levels are close and more debatable.

And on tertiary, slips and captaincy can be argued separately.

Overall, Imran is clearly a better cricketer.