capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
Waugh was legit one of the 3 Best batsmen of the 90s, 2nd for me. That included runs everywhere vs everyone in every situation. I rate him over Ponting.
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Battle of the Batting Orders
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
BazBall21
International Captain
Waugh's his best work in WI is slightly more impressive than Lloyd in Australia due to earlier crease entries on some very uneven wickets which is why I'd take him but Lloyd is one of the great tourists of Asian conditions. There's a smaller gap between them than Viv and Ponting.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
Waugh also is one of the best batsmen in SA. Very Good in India and Pakistan and went bonkers against England, albeit a pretty weak one. Lloyd is Great, just don't think he ever reached Waugh's highs consistently. It's similar to Dravid and Kohli to me (the difference is, not stylistically or by career trajectory).
BazBall21
International Captain
Not sure Lloyd was notably less consistent. Their RPI was the exact same (46) in the respective 11 years where they were both top class and Lloyd's only miss was New Zealand away. Waugh was just that bit better.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
Waugh was consistently of a higher tier away imho and he has a fair 4 runs average heads up, despite their batting positions not being too dissimilar and playing in a tougher for batting era.
BazBall21
International Captain
Attacking batsmen pick up less not outs. Their RPI was the same.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
RPI is important but I think average is more important. And I don't have any necessary likings to attacking batsmen.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
Think in a 1-0-1 Lloyd only gets India, while Waugh gets everything else; all pretty decisively.
BazBall21
International Captain
It's not about favouring attacking batsmen (especially as I'm not even arguing that Lloyd is better), I just don't think those not outs mean much when the actual runs they contributed were the same.
BazBall21
International Captain
For India v SA as that caused some discussion earlier...
Tendulkar is obviously the best player between the two teams, but SAF just have a very solid quartet. Sehwag and Laxman both had more significant weaknesses than Smith and Amla, and Kallis was also a bit tighter across conditions than Dravid.
Tendulkar is obviously the best player between the two teams, but SAF just have a very solid quartet. Sehwag and Laxman both had more significant weaknesses than Smith and Amla, and Kallis was also a bit tighter across conditions than Dravid.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
I would place Kallis and Dravid around equal really. Dravid was also better in Swinging conditions, the best of them all and I think his weaknesses to pace are a fair bit exaggerated. Think Sehwag and Laxman are worse than Amla and Smith, sure; not nearly enough to make up the gap between Tendulkar and Kallis and Dravid and ABD. Respectfully, it's not close overall.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
I don't necessarily agree to this. IIRC, Viv's RPI is also below 47. Average is more important than RPI imho.
BazBall21
International Captain
I rate Kallis over Dravid
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
I do too but by an extremely thin margin. Think they were equal in practicality, all 4 of the 2000s were.
And I rate Kallis higher for being better at home, Dravid was better away
BazBall21
International Captain
Attacking batsmen always get less not outs because they take more risks when looking to maximise with the tail who aren't going to last forever. I don't think it reduces their contribution. Did Waugh finishing unbeaten more frequently help the team when ultimately he scored the same amount of runs as Lloyd?
Some Not Outs are a well deserved signature and RPI can be a problematic comparative tool. But it's not too muddled in this instance because they batted in similar positions and for strong sides in the second halves of their career.
capt_Luffy
Hall of Fame Member
I think the instances Waugh pulled with a tail and added, say 20/30 extra team runs wasn't too few. Bottomline, don't think a player should be punished if his teammates all gets out. RPI is more useful for comparing real lower order batsmen like Imran, Botham, Pollock, etc imho.
BazBall21
International Captain
Same goes that attacking batsmen shouldn't be penalised for aiming to maximise when there's obviously limited time.