Lillee/Trueman/Akram/Donald - how would you rank them?

[subshakerz]

Yeah I don't think you should, way too controversial with a way bigger problem looming around than your test performances.

Yeah I don't think that makes much sense, for you the validity of that series hinges on if Lillee gets to play in Pakistan again?

I will still count the 54 series since I think players under pressure are still expected to perform.

And no, I am saying that I can't judge Lillee in Pakistan based on 79 because it's too small a sample he needs to play more to get a conclusion.

 

[Johan]

I will still count the 54 series since I think players under pressure are still expected to perform.

And no, I am saying that I can't judge Lillee in Pakistan based on 79 because it's too small a sample he needs to play more to get a conclusion.

let's chalk it upto a difference of opinion.

 

[subshakerz]

let's chalk it upto a difference of opinion.

Sure

 

[vidiq]

Donald
Trueman
Akram
Lillee.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Wasim
Donald
Trueman
Lillee

 

[Johan]

Obligated to post this when Lillee and Trueman are in the same thread.

 

[Coronis]

Allan Donald simply has by far the best record of the four. Obviously, all have a flaw as compared to the "top 5", but Donald's statistical record actually falls more in line with the top group than with the 3 in this thread. I will present on 3 criteria: Era adjusted away and home average ratios, era adjusted strike rate ratio, and WPI.

Average Ratios			A		H
Marshall		21.57/32.66	0.660440906​	20.06/31.62	0.634408602​
McGrath		20.81/32.48	0.64070197​	22.43/33.87	0.662237969​
Hadlee		21.72/32.69	0.664423371​	22.96/32.14	0.714374611​
Steyn		24.91/33.95	0.733726068​	21.62/30.36	0.712121212​
Ambrose		20.78/31.84	0.652638191​	21.19/29.46	0.71928038​
Donald		22.96/31.85	0.720879121​	21.64/29.61	0.730834178​
Akram		24.44/32.17	0.759714019​	22.22/30.45	0.729720854​
Lillee		24.28/32.93	0.737321591​	23.73/30.80	0.770454545​
Trueman		26.08/31.75	0.821417323​	20.04/27.70	0.723465704​
SR Ratio
Marshall		46.7/70.6	0.661473088​
McGrath		51.9/66.7	0.778110945​
Hadlee		50.8/71.7	0.708507671​
Steyn		42.3/63.4	0.667192429​
Ambrose		54.5/68.4	0.796783626​
Donald		47.0/68.5	0.686131387​
Akram		54.6/69.4	0.786743516​
Lillee		52.0/72.8	0.714285714​
Trueman		49.4/80.3	0.615193026​
WPI
Marshall		376/151	2.490066225​
McGrath		563/243	2.316872428​
Hadlee		431/150	2.873333333​
Steyn		439/171	2.567251462​
Ambrose		405/179	2.262569832​
Donald		330/129	2.558139535​
Akram		414/181	2.287292818​
Lillee		355/132	2.689393939​
Trueman		307/127	2.417322835​

As you can see, Donald simply ends up much closer to the top group than any of the others, and is in fact seems to belong more to them than the famous foursome in question.

Just curious, why was Imran not part of this exercise? I’m sure certain forum members would be curious as to where he is too. (haven’t actually gone over the analysis or method yet tbh )

 

[Johan]

Just curious, why was Imran not part of this exercise? I’m sure certain forum members would be curious as to where he is too. (haven’t actually gone over the analysis or method yet tbh )

****boy Imran always makes it to places where he doesn't belong.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Akram
Donald
Trueman
Lillee

 

[shortpitched713]

throw in Garner, Holding, Lindwall and Davidson and you got like 8 pacers exactly as good as each other.

If Donald has even a little bit of longevity/sample size issue, then it's doubly so for Davidson (and maybe 1.5 so for Lindwall and Garner). Holding's stats just aren't that impressive to be in this company, from what I remember, although he has an exceptional reputation.

I would go with Garner (for his batting) as the best of this group, imo.

Shaun Pollock worth a shout in this grouping too.

 

[Coronis]

There is no "big one" here, all four are very close. Suggesting otherwise is just false.

I think all the player gaps are majorly exaggerated on here (except Bradman - next best perhaps). But that’s just a function of having an subforum devoted to ranking players.

 

[Johan]

If Donald has even a little bit of longevity/sample size issue, then it's doubly so for Davidson (and maybe 1.5 so for Lindwall and Garner). Holding's stats just aren't that impressive to be in this company, from what I remember, although he has an exceptional reputation.

I would go with Garner (for his batting) as the best of this group, imo.

Shaun Pollock worth a shout in this grouping too.

Holding's numbers are a little screwed up by his first series, but he was a proper monster, in the same vein as Donald for me. What he did in flat dead Indian wickets in 1983 against an elite lineup is special, what he repeatedly achieved in Australia after 75 is special, his England record is special and so forth. I think his skill level was elite, after his first series he absolutely dominated the big three on their home turfs, sadly the same longevity concerns are brought about him.

When bowlers are so close, I also kind of value impact, so I generally Lindwall, Lillee and Trueman are the best of that tier as they pretty much defined what modern fast bowling would be, even till today Lillee is the attempted model for Australian pacers and Trueman for English.

 

[shortpitched713]

Just curious, why was Imran not part of this exercise? I’m sure certain forum members would be curious as to where he is too. (haven’t actually gone over the analysis or method yet tbh )

He's too polarizing, his career had distinct stages of different roles, and his top 5/6 (even GOAT) argument isn't really made based on a career stat aggregate. And it would derail the **** out of the thread. So yeah, I think I have good reason to not include him. His career stats based on these measures are below Donald's anyway, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Coronis]

Era adjusted average(away)

1. Marshall: 0.60440906
2. McGrath: 0.64070197
3. Hadlee: 0.64423371
4. Ambrose: 0.652638191
5. Donald: 0.720879121
6. Steyn: 0.733726068
7. Akram: 0.719741019
8. Lilee: 0.737321591
9. Trueman: 0.821417323


Era adjusted average(home)

1. Marshall: 0.634408602
2. McGrath: 0.662237969
3. Hadlee: 0.714374611
4. Lilee: 0.770454545
5. Ambrose: 0.719280308
6. Steyn: 0.712121212
7. Donald: 0.730834178
8. Akram: 0.729720854
9. Trueman: 0.723465704


Era adjusted strike rate

1. Trueman: 0.615193026
2. Marshall: 0.661473088
3. Donald: 0.686131387
4. Steyn: 0.667192429
5. McGrath: 0.778110945
6. Hadlee: 0.708507671
7. Akram: 0.786743516
8. Lilee: 0.774435714
9. Ambrose: 0.796783626

Era adjusted WPI

1. Trueman: 2.417322835
2. Marshall: 2.490066225
3. Lilee: 2.698039399
4. Akram: 2.287292818
5. Donald: 2.558139535
6. Ambrose: 2.262569832
7. Steyn: 2.567251462
8. Hadlee: 2.873333333
9. McGrath: 2.316872428

Thank god for all those decimals

 

[DrWolverine]

Thank god for all those decimals

This is the correct order man

 

[Johan]

Steyn under era adjusted away average came below Ambrose....? Voodoo, Dark Arts.

 

[Coronis]

This is the correct order man

I mean, no they’re not. Neither of the posts you made are in any correct order.

 

[DrWolverine]

I mean, no they’re not. Neither of the posts you made are in any correct order.

I will do it again

ChatGPT is useless

 

[DrWolverine]

Now let me try in grok

 

[Coronis]

I will do it again

ChatGPT is useless

Are you just ordering them in AI or coming up with the stats in general in AI?

Either one is silly but one is far more egregious than the other.