Akram. Lillee. Trueman.

[Johan]

We have. We can stop if you wish. I have been defending Lillee recently since I feel he is being underrated and you are doing your English cricketer thing.

There's no "Your English Cricketer thing", I am knowledgeable on older Cricketers, English, Kiwi or Australian or Windies so I bat for them – for example I batted for Worrell and Weekes not even long ago. Regardless, I also think Trueman became underrated by classic checklisting, match winning contributions on roads>>>blind averages.

Anyway I'm fine with stopping now, I've said everything I wanted to say.

 

[subshakerz]

Because he was, even the ones from the era with exceptional home conditions (Australia of 50s and South Africa) do not come close to the SR of Trueman, and even his WPI (2.27) in the 60s tours was above the away WPI of his peers in Lindwall (2.0), Davo (2.04), Hall (1.90 only counted Windies and Aus), Statham (1.76) and so forth, just denying the obvious reality here.


as if the 1962-63 Ashes wasn't extremely flat as well, but alright.


one of the few venues both toured.


so Lillee doesn't have a first tour to Windies? fine, we just compare the second, and as I said, the axe was on Freddie's career in 1954 tour of Windies


Lillee got TWO more, and this also comes down to the level of competition for wickets.


That's why I don't rate him above, But below Lillee (or Wasim) he isn't, He can't do anything if he only gets wicket specifically designed for draws against strong batting lineups. If he did have an ATG away series in the West Indies or Australia I'd probably rate him in the GOAT chat.


Winning 2 out of the 3 resulting games from 10 games all in flatter serieses in an achievement at the every level, now you're doing blind average reading rather than reading into the context of the series.


I rate Ashwin the bowler on level with people like Kohli, that alone tells you I value home performance.


there's a significant gap between their performance against the top two collectively, and it's not like the level of defecit in their WI records increase or decrease on removing their first serieses.

I will be quick:

- Again, home conditions, only one country.

- 79 Pakistan were notoriously flat. Prepared for no results.

- NZ if a minnow shouldn't be counted.

- Fine if he was injured the entire 54 tour. Was he?

- Winning single games in flat series is good but it's not like his overall wicket haul is exceptional to make an entire series very good, outside of just average. And there were similar or better pace performers those series so it's not like he only stood out.

- Ok but I don't think we see Ashwin as in even the same zone as Trueman despite Ashwin being perhaps even more exceptional at home.

- You are making it top two rather than one for the convenience of argument.

 

[subshakerz]

There's no "Your English Cricketer thing", I am knowledgeable on older Cricketers, English, Kiwi or Australian or Windies so I bat for them – for example I batted for Worrell and Weekes not even long ago. Regardless, I also think Trueman became underrated by classic checklisting, match winning contributions on roads>>>blind averages.

Anyway I'm fine with stopping now, I've said everything I wanted to say.

Ok I am done too and I didn't mean offense with the English thing.

 

[Johan]

I will be quick:

- Again, home conditions, only one country.

- 79 Pakistan were notoriously flat. Prepared for no results.

- NZ if a minnow shouldn't be counted.

- Fine if he was injured the entire 54 tour. Was he?

- Winning single games in flat series is good but it's not like his overall wicket haul is exceptional to make an entire series very good, outside of just average. And there were similar or better pace performers those series so it's not like he only stood out.

- Ok but I don't think we see Ashwin as in even the same zone as Trueman despite Ashwin being perhaps even more exceptional at home.

- You are making it top two rather than one for the convenience of argument.

- that's the WPI of the two full output tours he had in his 60s tho, 2.27, 0.2 or so clear of his closest rivals.

- same thing can be said about lots of 50s and 60s wickets, especially the ones in Windies, you mention that but in 54 one of the two games Trueman failed in, Windies made 700/8 dec to which England made 560, does that look like a test class wicket to you?

- Fair

- He was dropped after first game because of a controversy that had nothing to do with Cricket, came back in the fourth test for the 700 run wicket, contributed to win in the final game and series to be secured.

- Not at all average, rest of Pacers, especially English ones, average like 40 in those tours, and his wins on those wickets (2 out of 10) saved a series and downright won one. Davidson was better in 1962-63, no one was close in Windies tour.

- Ashwin is different because Trueman is more a lack of chances, when he got chances he performed well (~26, 2.3 WPI) even on flat away wickets and won games, Ashwin averages 40 in SENA after many chances even if good here and there.

- Only two sides that increase the 30 RPI/Batting average zone.

 

[Johan]

Ok I am done too and I didn't mean offense with the English thing.

just saw this after refreshing, don't worry, I'm aware that you did not.

 

[subshakerz]

- that's the WPI of the two full output tours he had in his 60s tho, 2.27, 0.2 or so clear of his closest rivals.

- same thing can be said about lots of 50s and 60s wickets, especially the ones in Windies, you mention that but in 54 one of the two games Trueman failed in, Windies made 700/8 dec to which England made 560, does that look like a test class wicket to you?

- Fair

- He was dropped after first game because of a controversy that had nothing to do with Cricket, came back in the fourth test for the 700 run wicket, contributed to win in the final game and series to be secured.

- Not at all average, rest of Pacers, especially English ones, average like 40 in those tours, and his wins on those wickets (2 out of 10) saved a series and downright won one. Davidson was better in 1962-63, no one was close in Windies tour.

- Ashwin is different because Trueman is more a lack of chances, when he got chances he performed well (~26, 2.3 WPI) even on flat away wickets and won games, Ashwin averages 40 in SENA after many chances even if good here and there.

- Only two sides that increase the 30 RPI/Batting average zone.

I want to respond but I will pass.

 

[Johan]

I want to respond but I will pass.

Fair enough, just so you know, I've no problems with Lillee>Trueman, just not a fan of either being belittled compared to other ATG pacers, you for one already bat for Lillee, someone needs to do the same for Trueman.