How much would a batsmen need to average to overtake Bradman?

[Johan]

don't like the idea of root breaking the tendulkar record

It will happen.

 

[Line and Length]

This sounds like one of the least likely cricket anecdotes I’ve ever heard tbh.

"Yes, Eric Hollies famously predicted dismissing Sir Don Bradman for a duck in his final Test innings. Hollies, a leg-spinner, had bowled to Bradman in a previous match and concluded that Bradman couldn't pick his "wrong'un" – a leg-spinner's alternative delivery that turns in towards a right-hander. He told his teammate that he would bowl it to Bradman second ball in the Oval Test."

 

[Line and Length]

You don’t have to be Verity to be quality spin. If you include fc cricket, which was the staple back then and usually included all the test players, unlike today, he faced;

Verity, White, Peebles, Robins, Freeman, Wright, Goddard, Laker, Hollies, Vintcent, Mankad, O’Reilly, Grimmett, Fleetwood-Smith, Blackie, Mailey and Ironmonger.
He went alright.

How many of these are quality spinners? By quality, I mean on a par with the likes of Murali, Warne, Kumble, Ashwin, Underwood, Tayfield, Bedi, Benaud, Gibbs, Chandrasekhar, Herath and Lyon. I would put only 4 or 5 in that category.

My apologies for not including Jadeja in that group.

 

[Coronis]

"Yes, Eric Hollies famously predicted dismissing Sir Don Bradman for a duck in his final Test innings. Hollies, a leg-spinner, had bowled to Bradman in a previous match and concluded that Bradman couldn't pick his "wrong'un" – a leg-spinner's alternative delivery that turns in towards a right-hander. He told his teammate that he would bowl it to Bradman second ball in the Oval Test."

Sounds real apocryphal to me. Sounds like a story one would make up after the fact.

If I was Hollies and I’d only done that one notable thing I’d big it up too.

 

[the big bambino]

How many of these are quality spinners? By quality, I mean on a par with the likes of Murali, Warne, Kumble, Ashwin, Underwood, Tayfield, Bedi, Benaud, Gibbs, Chandrasekhar, Herath and Lyon. I would put only 4 or 5 in that category.

My apologies for not including Jadeja in that group.

Thats more than enough for a 20 year career and the rest are test class quality as well. What more do you want? I see your list ranges over a 75 year period. I think it a bit laughable to expect Bradman to play every spinner over 3/4 of a century before you are convinced. How many other batsmen faced them all from Tayfield to Lyon? I think on reflection you'll see how silly you've been.

 

[Line and Length]

Sounds real apocryphal to me. Sounds like a story one would make up after the fact.

If I was Hollies and I’d only done that one notable thing I’d big it up too.

England's captain in that Test, Norman Yardley, related this as did Godfrey Evans. I think Len Hutton also made reference to it.

Hollies famously put county cricket ahead of Test selection and his first class record is worth remembering - 2323 wickets @ 20.94 which included in excess of 100 wickets in a season 10 times. In one match (v Notts in 1946) he took all 10 wickets without assistance from fieldsmen (7 bowled & 3 lbw). He has a stand at Edgbaston named in his honour.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

"Yes, Eric Hollies famously predicted dismissing Sir Don Bradman for a duck in his final Test innings. Hollies, a leg-spinner, had bowled to Bradman in a previous match and concluded that Bradman couldn't pick his "wrong'un" – a leg-spinner's alternative delivery that turns in towards a right-hander. He told his teammate that he would bowl it to Bradman second ball in the Oval Test."

The story seems too unreal to be true. And even if Hollies did that it was probably one of the things he was saying randomly that came true. If he could knock over Bradman that easily, he wouldn’t have played just 13 tests and averaged over 30 in those 13 matches.

 

[Line and Length]

Thats more than enough for a 20 year career and the rest are test class quality as well. What more do you want? I see your list ranges over a 75 year period. I think it a bit laughable to expect Bradman to play every spinner over 3/4 of a century before you are convinced. How many other batsmen faced them all from Tayfield to Lyon? I think on reflection you'll see how silly you've been.

Yes, silly to go off on a tangent. My argument has always been that Bradman was more vulnerable against leggies and left-arm orthodox bowlers than any other type of bowler. I have quoted Grimmett's record, made mention of Verity's dismissals in Tests and pointed out Hollies' famous delivery.

On a lighter note. If time travel was possible I would loved to see Bradman v Warne. Such an encounter would either confirm or quash my perception.

 

[sayon basak]

O'Reilly>Warne against great batters of spin imo.

 

[Johan]

O'Reilly>Warne against great batters of spin imo.

O Reilly > either against great players of spin/on flat pitches really.

 

[Line and Length]

The story seems too unreal to be true. And even if Hollies did that it was probably one of the things he was saying randomly that came true. If he could knock over Bradman that easily, he wouldn’t have played just 13 tests and averaged over 30 in those 13 matches.

The story may have become exaggerated over time. Hollies saw Bradman struggled to pick his googly in a county match and probably said something along the lines of, "I'll test him with a googly second ball."
Over time "I'll bowl him a googly second ball" grows to "I'll dismiss him second ball with a googly."

Those 13 Tests included five 5fers. His first Test was in 1935, his last in 1950. WWII robbed both him and Bradman some of their prime years. As stated previously, he put county cricket ahead of Test selection, and this may well have counted when the England selectors named sides.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I think on reflection you'll see how silly you've been.

Doubt it

 

[Line and Length]

Doubt it

... and you're the epitome of rational thought and commentary?

 

[TheJediBrah]

... and you're the epitome of rational thought and commentary?

in this case, clearly

 

[Line and Length]

I have the greatest respect for CW members but, in your case, I'll make an exception.

 

[Smudge]

Mods, can we please open a Bradman comparisons sub-forum?

 

[CartyDurham]

How many tests and what was Bradmans average outside of Australia ?

 

[turnstyle]

99.95 and also needs to fight in a world war somewhere in between.

 

[TheJediBrah]

99.95 and also needs to fight in a world war somewhere in between.

Pretty sure Bradman didn't fight in the war

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Wouldn't have to average 99.95 to be better or at least warrant comparison. Based on CW logic, Bradman's overseas record is highly flawed. Many players have a better record in the sub-continent. As such, a player who can average 70 overall but with a 60+ plus average in the sub-continent and ~80 in Australia and England would be nicely comparable. L&L has already raised Bradman's susceptibility against top tier spin. The fact he's not played against Jadeja in India must be held against him.

Obviously, if the player has a 60+ average in the sub-continent but, say, only averages 40 in Sri Lanka then their record would be junk so comparison would not be warranted.