Vernon Philander vs Brian Statham

[Johan]

Okay, I can go with bringing Trueman up to Philander level.

Bro

Fred has 83 more wickets in just 3 more games, and his SR is an absurd outlier to era, he is 22 points behind his era strike rate, more of an outlier than Steyn, it's exactly what Fred was highly rated for, extremely aggressive good wicket taker.

Lindwall: 60 Strike rate, 2 wickets an inning
Statham: 63 strike rate, 1.95 wickets an inning
Miller: 61 strike rate, 1.78 wickets an inning
Bedser: 67 strike rate, 2.56 wickets an inning (medium pace)
Adcock: 61 strike rate, 2.26 wickets an inning (never played on flatties)
Davidson: 63 strike rate, 2.26 wickets an inning


Trueman: 49 strike rate, 2.41 wickets an inning

 

[shortpitched713]

Well yes it can, because he played the majority of his career in favourable conditions. iirc wasn’t he notorious for missing out on tough matches?

Lets also not forget how low his WPI and WPM are.

He got key wickets, and the whole not playing in certain conditions only happened a couple times I think towards the end. It's highly overplayed.

 

[Coronis]

He got key wickets, and the whole not playing in certain conditions only happened a couple times I think towards the end. It's highly overplayed.

ftr he has the worst WPI of any bowler with 200 wickets who averages under 30 aside from Kemar Roach, Mohammad Shami and Chaminda Vaas.

Thats completely ass productivity from an opening bowler you claim to be better than Trueman, Lillee, Anderson, Waqar, Holding

 

[shortpitched713]

He was there to get good wickets, not many wickets, mmkay.

 

[Coronis]

He was there to bowl on good wickets, not many wickets, mmkay.

ftfy

I know you’re saying he’s the GOAT in friendly conditions but how can he be if he can’t even average 2 wickets per innings in his home country, the friendliest for pace bowling?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Not all pitches were bowler friendly in SA tbf. Philander is better than most ATGs on seaming pitches because of his accuracy.

 

[shortpitched713]

ftfy

I know you’re saying he’s the GOAT in friendly conditions but how can he be if he can’t even average 2 wickets per innings in his home country, the friendliest for pace bowling?

He was absolute gun for my signature draft team which had 6 quality bowlers.

So, if you construct a Test team with that blueprint, he'll be great.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Philander's peak was insane. Reached 50 wickets in just 7 Tests. He was the only bowler to outshine a peak Steyn for sometime.
Philander 2011-13 20 Tests 105 wickets @ 18.01 9 5 fers WPM 5.25
But will still give to Statham based on a better career.

 

[kyear2]

Obviously talking about bowling here.

Anyway, even though he's one of my favorites of all time, yeah GOAT is stretching it. But he is an ATG, and top 15 all time bowler, for me. Better than Trueman, Lillee, Anderson, Waqar, Holding, etc.

We're still speaking of Vernon?

 

[kyear2]

South African pitches are quite conductive for pace bowlers

This keeps being omitted.

Though to be fair, for Steyn as well.

 

[shortpitched713]

We're still speaking of Vernon?

Always.

 

[shortpitched713]

This keeps being omitted.

Though to be fair, for Steyn as well.

You have to start praising the hell out of Kallis, G Smith, ABD, Amma, etc. then. There's no world then where it makes sense to have Kallis below Tendulkar (unless you're some kind of SR supremacist, which is also next to baseless as a position). Otherwise logically you don't make sense.

I instead choose to rather give more credit to bowlers like Steyn, Pollock, Philander instead, because the flattening of pitches also certainly didn't spare SA. But Kallis is in a similar tier as Tendulkar as well, both top 10 -15 bats, and higher still if accounting for longevity.

 

[kyear2]

You have to start praising the hell out of Kallis, G Smith, ABD, Amma, etc. then. There's no world then where it makes sense to have Kallis below Tendulkar (unless you're some kind of SR supremacist, which is also next to baseless as a position). Otherwise logically you don't make sense.

I instead choose to rather give more credit to bowlers like Steyn, Pollock, Philander instead, because the flattening of pitches also certainly didn't spare SA. But Kallis is in a similar tier as Tendulkar as well, both top 10 -15 bats, and higher still if accounting for longevity.

I do give credit to Kallis and co, and I rate him at the head of that little group from the era, with the sole exception of Ponting.

He can't be over Tendulkar though and everyone knows why, not least among which not having as well rounded a record and Sachin's performance in the 90's.

I'm not that big on longevity, especially past a certain point and prefer quality over quantity.

 

[kyear2]

Always.

Top 15?

Really?

 

[shortpitched713]

I do give credit to Kallis and co, and I rate him at the head of that little group from the era, with the sole exception of Ponting.

He can't be over Tendulkar though and everyone knows why, not least among which not having as well rounded a record and Sachin's performance in the 90's.

I'm not that big on longevity, especially past a certain point and prefer quality over quantity.

They were contemporaries for most of their careers.

Tendulkar has the addition of some years in the early 90s, where Kallis wasn't playing. Tendulkar's peak though was mid and late 90s, and of course I'd cede that he was streets better as a bat than Kallis at that time.

However, from the 2000s onward to their retirement Kallis was simply usually the better performing batsman, with somewhat less favorable home conditions. Tendulkar really should have been cashing in on historically flat Indian pitches, and he had patches where he did, but not to that extent which I'd want from a BBB contender. This has always been my gripe with Tendulkar, even though I respect the hell out of the career accomplishments and longevity.

Even if you didn't particularly care for the flat pitch Era, you simply can't throw away or minimize player records from those times. Imagine if we did that with Bradman, we'd hardly have a career left to analyze as a "true test" for him.

 

[kyear2]

They were contemporaries for most of their careers.

Tendulkar has the addition of some years in the early 90s, where Kallis wasn't playing. Tendulkar's peak though was mid and late 90s, and of course I'd cede that he was streets better as a bat than Kallis at that time.

However, from the 2000s onward to their retirement Kallis was simply usually the better performing batsman, with somewhat less favorable home conditions. Tendulkar really should have been cashing in on historically flat Indian pitches, and he had patches where he did, but not to that extent which I'd want from a BBB contender. This has always been my gripe with Tendulkar, even though I respect the hell out of the career accomplishments and longevity.

Even if you didn't particularly care for the flat pitch Era, you simply can't throw away or minimize player records from those times. Imagine if we did that with Bradman, we'd hardly have a career left to analyze as a "true test" for him.

So who makes up your best after Bradman category?

 

[shortpitched713]

So who makes up your best after Bradman category?

To me it's just Sobers. There's a bunch of candidates though, 10ish probably which I skew towards the more professional end of cricket, but Sobers stands out clearly to me over the lot.

The other candidates out of currently retired Test batsmen in no particular order:

Lara
Viv
SRT
Gavaskar
Sanga
Kallis
Weekes
Barrington
Hutton
Chappell

 

[Johan]

No Root

 

[shortpitched713]

No Root

I put in currently retired, because I don't know how the fag ends of his and Smith's career are going to go, although yeah their careers are more or less in the books to be fair.

 

[Johan]

I put in currently retired, because I don't know how the fag ends of his and Smith's career are going to go, although yeah their careers are more or less in the books to be fair.

Fair