Andy Flower

[cricket player]

Best wicket keeper batsman ever?

 

[shaka]

Best wicket keeper batsman ever?

The simple answer is no, but probably for Zimbabwe he was.

 

[Slats4ever]

haha yeah you can't compare him with Gilchrist. well u can i suppose but nowhere near the same class

 

[Blaze]

haha yeah you can't compare him with Gilchrist. well u can i suppose but nowhere near the same class

I disagree. It would be a toss up for me as to who I would have in my side.

 

[C_C]

Care to tell me why Flower isnt comparable to Gillchrist ?
I would go for Gillchrist too, but it is fairly marginal as per their batting is concerned( Gilly IMO is a better keeper).

 

[Slats4ever]

read my post again CC i admitted that he was comparable to Gilchrist... just wanted to clear that up.

Gilchrist is far more of a game breaker and a powerhouse batting machine. Often I believe Gilchrist throws his wicket away simply cos Australia is in such an amazing position in most games that if he were to really knuckle down he could an increase his avg heaps more.

Players have rated him the scariest batsman to bowl to and I don't think Flower even appeared in the top 10.

Gilchrist is amazing at performing when he needs to, when the chips are down for Australia you can count on him coming through.

Gilchrists avges over 3 runs higher than Flower in tests, and strikes it at 38 more runs per hundred balls that Flower.

Gilchrist avgs more in od's and strikes it at over 20 runs per hundred balls better than Flower.

Gilchrist avges 4.2 dismissals per test compared to 2.53 per test from Flower.

The stats and the way of getting his runs says something about the massive edge that Gilchrist has on Flower.

 

[marc71178]

Gilchrist plays amongst a supremely talented line-up.

Flower was basically the only player Zimbabwe could rely on with the bat...

 

[shaka]

Flower does bat higher up in the order than Gilchrist and therefore Flower has no base in which to approach his innings. Gilchrist on the other hand comes in at 7 with the score usually above the 250 mark at least.

 

[shaka]

Gilchrist plays amongst a supremely talented line-up.

Flower was basically the only player Zimbabwe could rely on with the bat...

Maybe the other Flower brother (Grant) or Heath Streak.

 

[Dasa]

Gilchrist avges 4.2 dismissals per test compared to 2.53 per test from Flower.

I don't think this stat says anything about their respective capabilities as 'keepers. Gilchrist is 'keeping to McGrath, Warne and co...Flower kept wickets to bowlers of a much lower standard (who didn't create many chances he could hold on to).

Flower does bat higher up in the order than Gilchrist and therefore Flower has no base in which to approach his innings. Gilchrist on the other hand comes in at 7 with the score usually above the 250 mark at least.

Another point with that is Flower would often have to rescue his team from very precarious positions - even if batting at 3 or 4 or 5, he'd come in with very few runs on the board and take the team to a competitive total (at times).

 

[C_C]

Often I believe Gilchrist throws his wicket away simply cos Australia is in such an amazing position in most games that if he were to really knuckle down he could an increase his avg heaps more.

Actually, many people have this sort of misconceptions....that apparently you can increase your production by simply 'knuckling down' and batting carefully.
Trouble is, while many players can do this every now and then, nobody(who's style is fast paced) can do it consistently.
Simply because, every batsman has a natural rythm and they do best when they are batting in that rythm.
Dravid is great at knuckling down and scoring runs but he doesnt do too well when he tries to force the pace, simply because that isnt his natural style.
Many times Lara has got out trying to curb his free-styler strokeplay and being more conservative and Sachin's performance has declined ever since he adopted this 'safe' approach.
As such, i dont think Gilly's production would increase if he knuckled down and tried to bat like Dravid or Kallis.......infact, judging by precedence, it would lead to a detriment of his record.

As per the rest of the argument, it is irrelevant really.
For one, Flower faced better bowlers when he was around.
For two, he couldnt afford to bat in the carefree manner that Gilly can- Gilly's got an awesome half-dozen ahead of him, Flower usually had the entire batting order(minus him) equalling or struggling to equal what just Steve Waugh could do.

And dismissals/tests ? you mean catches and stumpings per test ?
What kinda ridiculous barometer is that ????
Yer rating wicketkeepers by catches/match ?
That is absurd, i am sorry.
For catches/match depends on 1. how good your bowling attack is and 2. how good a catcher you are.
Now, Gilly is a superior glovesman to Flower in my opinion but you stick Gilly in a team that has Matambanabzo, Hondo, Streak, Strang etc. as bowlers and Gilly would struggle to average 2 dismissals/test as well- simply because he would have nothing to hold on to if the bowlers arnt creating chances!

 

[Prince EWS]

Batsman - Flower
Keeper - Gilchrist

Keeper/Batsman - Gilchrist

 

[Blaze]

Batsman - Flower
Keeper - Gilchrist

Keeper/Batsman - Gilchrist

That sums it up for me

 

[Chubb]

It is a hell of a lot easier to score hundreds at 300-5 than it is at 10-1 following on 300 behind, knowing it's highly unlikely anyone will be able to stick around with you for long. If he played for Australia he would have an average as good as Gilchrist. It's all the more remarkable that he acheived a 50+ average it that side. no one else it that team averaged above 30 with the bat (Grant Flower was declining at the height of Andy's powers)

 

[King_Ponting]

Batsman - Flower
Keeper - Gilchrist

Keeper/Batsman - Gilchrist

Right on the money..

 

[Richard]

How on Earth anyone can possibly assert that Gilchrist is as good as Andy Flower as a batsman is totally beyond me.
For exactly the same reason as I believe Sangakkara a better batsman, I believe Flower the better too.
Gilchrist has easy runs too often - and even when he plays match-turning innings they're nothing-to-lose affairs.
Gilchrist's wicketkeeping, while underrated, is not in the top bracket and while Flower's wicketkeeping certainly suffered from the large workload he often took on there's no doubt he had the talent to be very, very good and when he had a lesser workload he could 'keep very, very well.

 

[Slats4ever]

How on Earth anyone can possibly assert that Gilchrist is as good as Andy Flower as a batsman is totally beyond me.
For exactly the same reason as I believe Sangakkara a better batsman, I believe Flower the better too.
Gilchrist has easy runs too often - and even when he plays match-turning innings they're nothing-to-lose affairs.
Gilchrist's wicketkeeping, while underrated, is not in the top bracket and while Flower's wicketkeeping certainly suffered from the large workload he often took on there's no doubt he had the talent to be very, very good and when he had a lesser workload he could 'keep very, very well.

woah man Gilchrist averages 55 and you are gawking at the fact that he is considered better than Flower. Every stat points to Gilchrist being better. Are you saying someone like Javed Omar is as good as Matthew Hayden simply cos he has to score his runs in heaps harder circumstances. That's basically taking ur argument to the extreme I know.

But Gilchrist by far and away is on at least the same level as Flower if not better.

 

[Dasa]

Gilchrist (team scores when he comes in and makes 100)
5-126
5-99
5-336
5-260
5-293
5-176
5-150
3-371
5-502
1-11
5-256
5-222
4-318
5-160
5-247

Avge Score: 235.13
Avge Wickets Lost: 4.53
4.53/235.13 = 5/235

Flower
3-83
3-42
3-136
4-117
3-19
4-51
3-27
3-134
3-61
3-51
3-25
3-210


Avge Score: 79.66
Avge Wickets Lost: 3.16
3.16/79.66 = 3/80

 

[shaka]

Wat are you trying to say in that list Dasa?

 

[Mister Wright]

Gilchrist and Flower play(ed) in very different roles. It was Flower's job to be the conductor of the innings, the other batsman would bat around him. Gilchrist's job is to pound the opposition into more misery, usually after they have been belted around the park by Hayden & co.

Flower was the first genuine keeping allrounder, the game has changed a lot even since he started his international career.