Gooch v Chanderpaul

[Johan]

Against Alderman in England (83@19.3 in 12 games for reference) in 1980s, as an opener, I reckon even 20 would be a hard task for Shiv.

 

[BazBall21]

agreed, Viv the best until like 85-86, Crowe eclipising him post Viv's Pakistan series, Gooch taking over in 1990 and losing it to Lara or Tendulkar in 1994.

Border was up there in the late 80s too. I like peak Crowe's conversion rate though. Border not converting any of his 11 fifties in 1989 isn't best batsman in the world material.

 

[BazBall21]

Against Alderman in England (83@19.3 in 12 games for reference) in 1980s, as an opener, I reckon even 20 would be a hard task for Shiv.

He was built in a lab to bowl in England. A better Woakes. Had good support from the other end in 81' and 89' too. Australia were always the big stumbling block for Gooch before the 90s. He generally performed against other teams and was the best batsman v the quartet.

 

[capt_Luffy]

agreed, Viv the best until like 85-86, Crowe eclipising him post Viv's Pakistan series, Gooch taking over in 1990 and losing it to Lara or Tendulkar in 1994.

Viv between 76-81. From 82-83 he was in off form. Don't think he took 84 with a bang.

 

[Johan]

Border was up there in the late 80s too. I like peak Crowe's conversion rate though. Border not converting any of his 11 fifties in 1989 isn't best batsman in the world material.

Border to me was kind of what a Shiv type Batsmen should be, rather than an average obsessed Flat track bully, an actual great batter capable of batting with tail actually trying to help his team win. as a batsmen, I think peak Crowe was ahead too, higher run output and better conversion.

 

[Johan]

Viv between 76-81. From 82-83 he was in off form. Don't think he took 84 with a bang.

85-88 I feel like Viv and Crowe (and perhaps Border) were all about even with all three having valid claims for best in the world, and Yes I don't think 84 Viv was amazing, you know, eye surgery and all.

 

[Coronis]

Proof?

iirc none of us have any proof for the hypothetical situations we’re always conjuring up here.

 

[Johan]

iirc none of us have any proof for the hypothetical situations we’re always conjuring up here.

Yeah, but listing a hypothetical as a reason for a comparision is not wise, I think Atherton would average 45+ if he played in 2000s but that doesn't mean it would be wise to treat him like that when compared with say Cook.

 

[capt_Luffy]

85-88 I feel like Viv and Crowe (and perhaps Border) were all about even with all three having valid claims for best in the world, and Yes I don't think 84 Viv was amazing, you know, eye surgery and all.

85-88 I would put Border ahead, then Crowe, and Viv was quite close to them. Miandad also a decent shout

 

[BazBall21]

Border to me was kind of what a Shiv type Batsmen should be, rather than an average obsessed Flat track bully, an actual great batter capable of batting with tail actually trying to help his team win. as a batsmen, I think peak Crowe was ahead too, higher run output and better conversion.

Border better overall because of sheer weight of runs and doing more away from home but peak Crowe was world class.

 

[BazBall21]

iirc none of us have any proof for the hypothetical situations we’re always conjuring up here.

To be fair FP started the hypotheticals not Johan

 

[BazBall21]

85-88 I feel like Viv and Crowe (and perhaps Border) were all about even with all three having valid claims for best in the world, and Yes I don't think 84 Viv was amazing, you know, eye surgery and all.

Miandad should probably get mentioned too for best batsmen in the late 80s. Gooch ruled supreme in the early 90s.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

85-88 I would put Border ahead, then Crowe, and Viv was quite close to them. Miandad also a decent shout

And Vengsakar

 

[Johan]

Border better overall because of sheer weight of runs and doing more away from home but peak Crowe was world class.

I believe it's debateable in that few years gap yeah, sadly, Crowe had a rough start

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Graham Gooch was the best batsman on the planet for a solid 5 years

About 2.5

 

[Coronis]

To be fair FP started the hypotheticals not Johan

I mean my point is asking for proof for a hypothetical is illogical, no?

 

[BazBall21]

I believe it's debateable in that few years gap yeah, sadly, Crowe had a rough start

Yeah it's well documented that Crowe had a rough start&a rough finish and both were just bad luck more than anything else. In a better setup with no injury trouble, who knows.

 

[Johan]

I reckon even for a hypothetical one can make a case for why they believe an hypothetical to be probable, saying Shiv would perform in Gooch's position against Alderman sounds a little silly.

 

[BazBall21]

I mean my point is asking for proof for a hypothetical is illogical, no?

Yeah fair enough. Though I don't think it's unreasonable to not be so sure Chanderpaul would do fine opening in England v a bloke with 83 Test wickets @ 19 in said country as someone with no experience of opening in test cricket and probably not much experience domestically.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah fair enough. Though I don't think it's unreasonable to not be so sure Chanderpaul would do fine opening in England v a bloke with 83 Test wickets @ 19 in said country as someone with no experience of opening in test cricket and probably not much experience domestically.

Given Alderman’s record in England, I wouldn’t be confident about anyone in history doing well against him there. Not even Don.