*Official* England in India 2023/24 #CryMoreTour

[R!TTER]

I know it's stating the obvious, but the 2-1 series score line once again supports the argument about the(and of course batting). I recall OS in the past arguing this is some sort of myth but I've never seen any evidence to support this outside India still winning some games after losing the toss and batted second - but that's more of a function of how strong they are at home.

I know this forum probably has memory of a gold fish but that's 100% not true, even from the pre DRS era! In fact India is much more stronger when the pitches are flat -

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team India

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2007

Toss result won the toss

Totals in terms of batting team

Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 1

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
South Africa	2008-2010	4	1	2	0	1	0.500	39.36	3.01	7	558	121
England	2008-2024	10	2	6	0	2	0.333	31.50	2.93	20	578	81
Australia	2008-2023	13	1	9	0	3	0.111	28.64	2.86	26	480	91
Pakistan	2007-2007	1	0	1	0	0	0.000	23.90	2.66	2	247	231
Bangladesh	2019-2019	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	17.02	3.32	4	213	106
New Zealand	2010-2012	3	0	2	0	1	0.000	30.67	3.33	6	448	175
Sri Lanka	2009-2017	3	0	2	0	1	0.000	25.29	3.32	6	393	166
West Indies	2011-2018	4	0	3	0	1	0.000	25.60	2.97	8	590	127

Oz has won 13 tosses since 2007, lost 9 games, Eng 10 & lost 6 of them. Weirdly the best team in this time, i.e. SA, have lost the most tosses. The 2015 series vs SA was definitely won on the back of tosses IMO - the reason Eng/Oz don't win here much anymore is because they don't have anyone comparable to Steyn. Yes Cummins is good but not that good in Asia.

 

[R!TTER]

I stand to be corrected, but I'm assuming every Test win from an away team in India in the last decade or so has been achieved after they won the toss and batted.

Let's put it this way - if the track is helpful or ragged turner you can still lose the toss & win like Mumbai 2001 or 2006, then Mumbai/Kolkata 2012, Indore 2023 et al. On flat decks you better pray you win the toss because I don't remember India losing a test batting first on such pitches any time post 2k or so.

 

[Molehill]

just took these images from the highlights

View attachment 39239

View attachment 39238

I have no issue with Umpire's Call. I have two issues with this though.

1) No umpire should be giving that out. There is so much doubt involved he should never raise his finger. Dharmasena and Wilson should long since have been removed from the 'Elite' Panel, they've proved time and again they're not up to it.
2) That ball appears to be on its way down already. It hit Crawley (he's 6ft 5 FFS) above the knee roll, he had lifted his left foot too. I just don't believe how DRS can have that even clipping a stump.

 

[Silver Silva]

I know it's stating the obvious, but the 2-1 series score line once again supports the argument about the huge advantage of winning the toss in India (and of course batting). I recall OS in the past arguing this is some sort of myth but I've never seen any evidence to support this outside India still winning some games after losing the toss and batted second - but that's more of a function of how strong they are at home.

I stand to be corrected, but I'm assuming every Test win from an away team in India in the last decade or so has been achieved after they won the toss and batted.

So basically when India loses the toss and wins the game its because they are a strong team

But when India wins the toss and wins the game its because it's a huge advantage to win the toss ..

Of course this SENA argument can appear strong because the rules for this argument in terms of a coin toss analogy is Tails I win , Heads you lose ..

No matter what India does it won't matter there will be something to blame for the loss of others .

India are unbeaten at home because other teams can't match their quality in the conditions , anyone can lose a test but to win a series you need consistent quality not just a flip of the coin, England had some quality bowling performances and batting performances in 2012 and got the win that's how you win a series in India just like everywhere else.

 

[CricAddict]

Umpire's calls are fine but umpire's reviews should be taken out except for run-out calls. The umpire is there for umpiring, he can't be asking for help with that. Also, if he has made a wrong call, there are 3 reviews given to each team to correct that. So, go with your guts and give the decision ffs.

 

[Molehill]

- The test England won in this series, they won after conceding a near 200 run first innings lead. It'd be foolish to imply the toss had any role in their win because whatever advantage the toss gave them for batting first they completely squandered.

- Australia won a test last year after bowling first on a complete minefield of a pitch.

- The last team to win a series here was England in 2012 when they lost the toss and bowled first in both tests they won.

- The statistical evidence clearly points at there being no massive advantage. Post 2000, below are the match results for India winning and losing the toss at home:

Win toss : 33 wins, 7 losses, 14 draws
Lost toss : 35 wins, 8 losses, 15 draws

So yes. Still a myth.

Generally, batting first is an advantage on most Indian pitches because of a relative homogeneity in the surfaces where only a handful of pitches noticeable improve for batting later in the game. It's never given teams a huge advantage that can't be overcome though.

England won in 2012 because they had two elite players of spin who were at the peak of their form, and two outstanding spinners themselves.

In this series England have one elite player of spin who is literally at the bottom of the well in terms of form, and two spinners who have barely played a FC game.

I agree, whilst the toss does obviously help, I'd be surprised if it made that much difference. England's best hope is to create scoreboard pressure, but I'd be surprised if that was even enough n the last 2 Tests given India have found a far better 11 from what they kicked off the series with and England have lost their best spinner..

 

[Silver Silva]

England won in 2012 because they had two elite players of spin who were at the peak of their form, and two outstanding spinners themselves.

In this series England have one elite player of spin who is literally at the bottom of the well in terms of form, and two spinners who have barely played a FC game.

I agree, whilst the toss does obviously help, I'd be surprised if it made that much difference. England's best hope is to create scoreboard pressure, but I'd be surprised if that was even enough n the last 2 Tests given India have found a far better 11 from what they kicked off the series with and England have lost their best spinner..

But statistically the hardest time to bat in a test match is in the 4th innings , that is true for everywhere ..

Even when NZ chased 260 odd vs SA the other day that was like a record score in NZ or something, usually the best way to avoid batting last is to bat first in a Test match ..Isn't that is why there is an old saying , if you win the toss bat first ..if you undecided think about it and bat again.

 

[Molehill]

But statistically the hardest time to bat in a test match is in the 4th innings , that is true for everywhere ..

Even when NZ chased 260 odd vs SA the other day that was like a record score in NZ or something, usually the best way to avoid batting last is to bat first in a Test match ..Isn't that is why there is an old saying , if you win the toss bat first ..if you undecided think about it and bat again.

Not saying the toss isn't a big advantage, just not sure it's going to affect the result of the last 2 Tests. I think they can be closer if England win them, and there's no doubt the one thing this Indian team is susceptible to is scoreboard pressure. I'm just not sure this England side can actually create that now. The best bat has lost his confidence, they're carrying two others, the spinners are simply not up to it.

 

[Prince EWS]

It definitely seems to be a team directive where mccullum has told them to act like alpha male dick-waving ***** as much as possible and follow some pre-defined set of guidelines for statements to the media which goes something like :

1) If we win with bazball, "Yay, bazball"
2) If we lose a close game, "It didn't feel like we lost, we're saving test cricket etc"
3) If we get thumped and the opposition wins by batting slow, "We were surprised how negative they were. They looked scared of Bazball"
4) If we get thumped and the opposition wins by batting fast, "We were surprised how aggressive they were. Looks like Bazball inspired them"

I guess putting a delusional uber positive spin on everything is part of their identity at this point but no one should act surprised why it's annoying.

Yeah it's obvious they're intellectually dishonest with their public statements at this point - instead of having something approaching an honest relationship with the press and the public, they just tactically say whatever they think will maintain morale and confidence levels, even when it's clearly nonsense.

Which is fine - their job is to win, not to be honest analysts - but it does mean we should stop taking it seriously.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Just sounds like a team full of forum posters.

 

[Shri]

Generally, batting first is an advantage on most Indian pitches

we have also only recently started playing home tests in january/feb

there is 1st session assistance for bowlers and i do not remember this in my younger when watching home tests

idk if this has to be looked at seriously

 

[honestbharani]

No matter what India does it won't matter there will be something to blame for the loss of others .

aka all of saltshakerz posts in CW.

 

[Chin Music]

England won in 2012 because they had two elite players of spin who were at the peak of their form, and two outstanding spinners themselves.

In this series England have one elite player of spin who is literally at the bottom of the well in terms of form, and two spinners who have barely played a FC game.

I agree, whilst the toss does obviously help, I'd be surprised if it made that much difference. England's best hope is to create scoreboard pressure, but I'd be surprised if that was even enough n the last 2 Tests given India have found a far better 11 from what they kicked off the series with and England have lost their best spinner..

Yep, that's about it in a nutshell. It isn't just Root though, Bairstow has been way short of form as well. You can't have two of your top 6 not contributing through a series and expect to do very much.

With the best will in the world, Leach isn't going to win England a series in India, and not now with some of their young players stepping up in a big way. Barring the top order scoring huge in the first innings of a game, which they haven't done this series even in the first test, it is hard to see how they can put a lot of pressure on India.

 

[Silver Silva]

Yeah it's obvious they're intellectually dishonest with their public statements at this point - instead of having something approaching an honest relationship with the press and the public, they just tactically say whatever they think will maintain morale and confidence levels, even when it's clearly nonsense.

Which is fine - their job is to win, not to be honest analysts - but it does mean we should stop taking it seriously.

So basically they are cricketing politicians and Bazball is their version of Make Tests Great Again

 

[Molehill]

Yeah it's obvious they're intellectually dishonest with their public statements at this point - instead of having something approaching an honest relationship with the press and the public, they just tactically say whatever they think will maintain morale and confidence levels, even when it's clearly nonsense.

Which is fine - their job is to win, not to be honest analysts - but it does mean we should stop taking it seriously.

I think certain elements of the media are setting them up with some daft questions too. I mean, when Duckett is asked about what they can chase down in the 4th innings, should he have honestly said "they've already got too many, we'll probably just get out cheaply and go and play golf"?

 

[Chin Music]

we have also only recently started playing home tests in january/feb

there is 1st session assistance for bowlers and i do not remember this in my younger when watching home tests

idk if this has to be looked at seriously

Previous series have been played in November/December. Is there much difference in help given the dew factor for the more northerly games?

 

[Socerer 01]

Just sounds like a team full of forum posters.

this is an accurate description of them

 

[honestbharani]

I think certain elements of the media are setting them up with some daft questions too. I mean, when Duckett is asked about what they can chase down in the 4th innings, should he have honestly said "they've already got too many, we'll probably just get out cheaply and go and play golf"?

No but he can answer realistically and say they feel anything around 400-450 seems chaseable as the wicket is still decent enough to bat on and that they would fancy themselves even if it went above that.

 

[Silver Silva]

I think certain elements of the media are setting them up with some daft questions too. I mean, when Duckett is asked about what they can chase down in the 4th innings, should he have honestly said "they've already got too many, we'll probably just get out cheaply and go and play golf"?

I would say Duckett should just leave those questions alone but he isn't the best at leaving !

 

[Socerer 01]

I think certain elements of the media are setting them up with some daft questions too. I mean, when Duckett is asked about what they can chase down in the 4th innings, should he have honestly said "they've already got too many, we'll probably just get out cheaply and go and play golf"?

every team and player gets asked daft questions by the media

there is a reason why England quotes are featuring prominently and unlike others here i dont hate bazball too