Mohammad Yousuf vs Graham Thorpe

[PlayerComparisons]

Who was better

 

[BazBall21]

As an all-conditions player, Thorpe.

 

[BazBall21]

Yousuf failed in the two toughest pace-orientated countries and two toughest spin-orientated countries of his era. Thorpe succeeded everywhere except South Africa. Has tough hundreds in Perth, Bridgetown, Colombo, Wellington, Trent Bridge etc. Notably good record against the finest team of his era, Australia. One 150+ score is a problem big enough for me to rate him lower than some other players with milder overseas success. Inzamam for example. Not lower than Yousuf though who was a bit of a soft runs machine minus the WI tour which was very creditable. Very good player though, better than Thorpe at cashing in and more elegant.

 

[slowfinger]

Yousuf failed in the two toughest pace-orientated countries and two toughest spin-orientated countries of his era. Thorpe succeeded everywhere except South Africa. Has tough hundreds in Perth, Bridgetown, Colombo, Wellington, Trent Bridge etc. Notably good record against the finest team of his era, Australia. One 150+ score is a problem big enough for me to rate him lower than some other players with milder overseas success. Inzamam for example. Not lower than Yousuf though who was a bit of a soft runs machine minus the WI tour which was very creditable. Very good player though, better than Thorpe at cashing in and more elegant.

load of tosh. Yousuf has 100s in every country other than South Africa, where he admittedly struggled. Average of 55 in England, 55 in NZ. Struggled in Aus but still scored vital runs, and cashed in at home. nothing wrong with that.

 

[BazBall21]

load of tosh. Yousuf has 100s in every country other than South Africa, where he admittedly struggled. Average of 55 in England, 55 in NZ. Struggled in Aus but still scored vital runs, and cashed in at home. nothing wrong with that.

No of course there’s nothing wrong with cashing in. But at tough runs, he didn’t do as well as Thorpe. Averages below 35 in four countries, three of them were arguably the toughest he had to tour. I don’t incl England in that because the pitches he got there in 2006 were very flat.
Yousuf is better than Thorpe at cashing in but he did also have a wealth of opportunities for that.

 

[slowfinger]

No of course there’s nothing wrong with cashing in. But at tough runs, he didn’t do as well as Thorpe. Averages below 35 in four countries, three of them were arguably the toughest he had to tour. I don’t incl England in that because the pitches he got there in 2006 were very flat.
Yousuf is better than Thorpe at cashing in but he did also have a wealth of opportunities for that.

taking away Yousuf's golden 2005/6/7 era would render his career average almost useless and wouldn't even be worthy of the debate probably. don't think that's fair.

prime Yousuf > Thorpe for me. Has a test 100 vs prime Warne and McGrath to boot too, as well as rendering an Ashes-winning English attack useless for a whole series.

 

[BazBall21]

taking away Yousuf's golden 2005/6/7 era would render his career average almost useless and wouldn't even be worthy of the debate probably. don't think that's fair.

prime Yousuf > Thorpe for me. Has a test 100 vs prime Warne and McGrath to boot too, as well as rendering an Ashes-winning English attack useless for a whole series.

He does have a test hundred against McGrath/Warne which is good, but contextually he wasn’t as good against them as Thorpe. I heavily respect his work against mid-2000s England but each hundred came on a road so it doesn’t really disprove my point. Very good flat tracks player which is positive in isolation. But I hold tough runs in high regard too. This isn’t patriotism too. I think Cook is overrated because he was a bit FTBish.

 

[slowfinger]

He does have a test hundred against McGrath/Warne which is good, but contextually he wasn’t as good against them as Thorpe. I heavily respect his work against mid-2000s England but each hundred came on a road so it doesn’t really disprove my point. Very good flat tracks player which is positive in isolation. But I hold tough runs in high regard too. This isn’t patriotism too. I think Cook is overrated because he was a bit FTBish.

i also think that Yousuf played in a Pakistani batting lineup that was constantly 2 down by the time he came in. Thorpe played in an England side that was much more solid all the way down. i think that pressure also has to count for something. If Thorpe had to constantly bail out the top order and also average 50 he would be rated much more highly.

 

[BazBall21]

i also think that Yousuf played in a Pakistani batting lineup that was constantly 2 down by the time he came in. Thorpe played in an England side that was much more solid all the way down. i think that pressure also has to count for something. If Thorpe had to constantly bail out the top order and also average 50 he would be rated much more highly.

Don’t agree there. I haven’t mentioned that Thorpe’s feats came in a weak England side during most of his career because Yousuf didn’t play for a very strong side but Thorpe had a ‘fireman’ nickname because he had to steady the ship a lot. Averages very highly in Tests where he came in without good runs on the board.

 

[slowfinger]

Don’t agree there. I haven’t mentioned that Thorpe’s feats came in a weak England side during most of his career because Yousuf didn’t play for a very strong side but Thorpe had a ‘fireman’ nickname because he had to steady the ship a lot. Averages very highly in Tests where he came in without good runs on the board.

i think a more appropriate comparison would be Thorpe vs Misbah ul Haq.

 

[honestbharani]

Thorpe probably more reliable to get a score under any conditions, but MoYoYo had that peak. Hard to choose, really. A good comparison.

 

[slowfinger]

Don’t agree there. I haven’t mentioned that Thorpe’s feats came in a weak England side during most of his career because Yousuf didn’t play for a very strong side but Thorpe had a ‘fireman’ nickname because he had to steady the ship a lot. Averages very highly in Tests where he came in without good runs on the board.

i'd rather have Nasser Hussain and Michael Atherton ahead of me than salman butt and imran farhat.

 

[BazBall21]

i'd rather have Nasser Hussain and Michael Atherton ahead of me than salman butt and imran farhat.

Yeah he did also play in the same middle order as Inzamam-Ul-Haq and Younis Khan a lot of the time. Alec Stewart was the best bat Thorpe played with if we’re talking a good chunk of his career. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[BazBall21]

Batting averages of their top sevens over the course of their careers @slowfinger

Yousuf: 36.81
Thorpe: 35.06

 

[slowfinger]

Batting averages of their top sevens over the course of their careers @slowfinger

Yousuf: 36.81
Thorpe: 35.06

i think a better statistic for us to discriminate who was in tougher situations would be average team score when entered the wicket.

 

[slowfinger]

Batting averages of their top sevens over the course of their careers @slowfinger

Yousuf: 36.81
Thorpe: 35.06

a better statistic stillwould be average time in innings (over wise) when entering the innings

 

[BazBall21]

i think a better statistic for us to discriminate who was in tougher situations would be average team score when entered the wicket.

I will try to find that out but there is also the fact Thorpe played 64% of his career in a bowling era compared to 29% for Yousuf. Thorpe played a very high percentage of his innings against better than median attacks and it’s fair to say he delivered against them.

Edit: Over average would be harder to find and think score would also be better. Overs are less relevant in batsman-friendly conditions. At least score-wise there’s the pressure aspect and it relates more to batting support and batting platform that we were discussing.

 

[slowfinger]

I will try to find that out but there is also the fact Thorpe played 64% of his career in a bowling era compared to 29% for Yousuf. Thorpe played a very high percentage of his innings against better than median attacks and it’s fair to say he delivered against them.

Edit: Over average would be harder to find and think score would also be better. Overs are less relevant in batsman-friendly conditions. At least score-wise there’s the pressure aspect and it relates more to batting support and batting platform that we were discussing.

if we take only the matches Yousuf batted at his favoured 4 vs Thorpe at his favoured 5 then I think it makes sense to do by score.

 

[BazBall21]

Objectively I’ve never been a big fan of bumping people up for peaks tbh. Much prefer cross-career consistency. I disagree with it but I don’t mind this result too much. Yousuf isn’t a 2000s Asian tracks bully, handy player of pace bowling. A more-or-less spin specialist in Mahela over Thorpe however was downright depressing.

 

[BazBall21]

if we take only the matches Yousuf batted at his favoured 4 vs Thorpe at his favoured 5 then I think it makes sense to do by score.

I’ll try and do that tomorrow if I get time.