Best Test opener of the 21st Century?

[subshakerz]

34.16 at home to the top six opponents. The other three were Ban/Zim, both proper minnows, and WI’s bowling during his career can’t be far off minnow status, definitely poor. I don’t think his home record is a dealbreaker, particularly given how good his away record is, but it’s definitely some valid context when rating him.

Excluding WI is just parsing his record to a wholly unfair degree IMO.

 

[Coronis]

AB has the second highest home average of the last 32 years... 47. He averaged 30ish as.an opener in RSA.

Kallis the goat

 

[BazBall21]

Excluding WI is just parsing his record to a wholly unfair degree IMO.

Fair enough.

 

[Bolo.]

Kallis the goat

Ya, his home record is pretty remarkable. Other than really weak countries, I don't think there.is anyone close to as far ahead of his countrymen at home.

Away records paint a more reliable picture of quality though.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Those stats for ABdV opening are mostly the result of his career stages. First came into the team as an opener and then he got better as he moved down the order. I'm sure if latter-career ABdV opened he would have done a lot better

 

[_00_deathscar]

What is worse though? Smith's record at home in SA or Hayden and Sehwag in NZ, SA and Eng?

Smith’s home record because you play about 50% of matches at home.

 

[subshakerz]

Smith’s home record because you play about 50% of matches at home.

Yeah but outside of minnows Smith still averages 38 at home, not as bad as the others away in SA, Eng, and NZ individually and collectively. Its more of an underperformance than failing.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Yeah but outside of minnows Smith still averages 38 at home, not as bad as the others away in SA, Eng, and NZ individually and collectively.

Thats half your games where he’s serviceable.

For Sehwag especially, doubt NZ/England/SA add up to half.

Hayden they would because of England I assume.

 

[subshakerz]

Thats half your games where he’s serviceable.

For Sehwag especially, doubt NZ/England/SA add up to half.

Hayden they would because of England I assume.

I look at it more as what is the opener's overall level in swinging conditions based on their record.

Smith did very well in Eng and NZ and was still serviceable in SA, while the others were below par in all these countries.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I look at it more as what is the opener's overall level in swinging conditions based on their record.

Smith did very well in Eng and NZ and was still serviceable in SA, while the others were below par in all these countries.

If Hayden was better in those conditions, but worse by an equal amount in home conditions, he wouldn't be a better player. He'd be worse because he plays half his games at home and being good there is more important than 2 or 3 specifically selected other places.

 

[Socerer 01]

If Hayden was better in those conditions, but worse by an equal amount in home conditions, he wouldn't be a better player. He'd be worse because he plays half his games at home and being good there is more important than 2 or 3 specifically selected other places.

Yeah I don’t get this obsession that people have over batsmen who are serviceable at home with better away records being much better than players with good home records. Such a player is rarely ever getting picked consistently in the team as seen by exhibit Jennings or Maxwell. This is even worse with subcontinental teams and especially India whose legion of fans seem to treat SENA records as the holy grail. Thinking like this is what led to spuds like Rahane overstaying their place and time in the team despite clearly being visibly past it in a majority of games because they had good SENA tours once

 

[subshakerz]

If Hayden was better in those conditions, but worse by an equal amount in home conditions, he wouldn't be a better player. He'd be worse because he plays half his games at home and being good there is more important than 2 or 3 specifically selected other places.

You are confusing value to the side versus actual quality as an opener/batsman. A player who scores more heavily at home where he plays half his games but is severely handicapped in certain foreign conditions may be more valuable to the team which plays mostly at home but isn't a better player based on that limitation compared to someone more well-rounded.

For batsman, scoring prolifically and scoring across countries are the first two things you will be assessed upon.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You are confusing value to the side versus actual quality as an opener/batsman.

Nah you

 

[srbhkshk]

I have always thought that the reason a better away record is more important than a better home record is that it's easier to find roughly equivalent replacements at home and that the other batsman will probably take care of the job even if you fail, whereas overseas everyone really needs to contribute whenever they can because the default will be that most of your teammates will fail.

This criterion doesn't really fit on Sehwag though tbh, you can't really find any equivalent replacement for him and no other batsman really comes close to doing what he can at home.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah I don’t get this obsession that people have over batsmen who are serviceable at home with better away records being much better than players with good home records. Such a player is rarely ever getting picked consistently in the team as seen by exhibit Jennings or Maxwell. This is even worse with subcontinental teams and especially India whose legion of fans seem to treat SENA records as the holy grail. Thinking like this is what led to spuds like Rahane overstaying their place and time in the team despite clearly being visibly past it in a majority of games because they had good SENA tours once

You are far more likely to find batsmen comfortable in home conditions than those who specialize in performing away.

Smith's best performances away have contributed to match wins and series victories for SA that in the grand scheme are far more important than just another expected win at home.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Smith's best performances away have contributed to match wins and series victories for SA that in the grand scheme are far more important than just another expected win at home.

That's just like, your opinion man

 

[subshakerz]

I have always thought that the reason a better away record is more important than a better home record is that it's easier to find roughly equivalent replacements at home and that the other batsman will probably take care of the job even if you fail, whereas overseas everyone really needs to contribute whenever they can because the default will be that most of your teammates will fail.

Exactly, scoring runs at home is a norm for most batsman, not away.

This criterion doesn't really fit on Sehwag though tbh, you can't really find any equivalent replacement for him and no other batsman really comes close to doing what he can at home.

You can in terms of run output, just not in terms of SR.

 

[subshakerz]

That's just like, your opinion man

Is it though? Unless you are playing a vastly superior team, like India vs Australia in 2001, away victories are more precious.

 

[Socerer 01]

You are far more likely to find batsmen comfortable in home conditions than those who specialize in performing away.

Smith's best performances away have contributed to match wins and series victories for SA that in the grand scheme are far more important than just another expected win at home.

this is pure conjecture as teams have seldom tried to find batsmen who are specialists in away conditions and for good reason as they play half of their games in home conditions

 

[Socerer 01]

Exactly, scoring runs at home is a norm for most batsman, not away.


You can in terms of run output, just not in terms of SR.

exactly which is why someone who is just serviceable at home isn’t going to get picked ahead of superior options because he isn’t even as good as the norm?

also not sure what your obsession is with plucking away at what made Sehwag himself, sure if you take away his strike-rate he becomes nothing special. His aggression is whole shtick and not just his run output