Best Test opener of the 21st Century?

[Gob]

RSA were not a good bowling outfit for most of the overlap between Hayden and Smith. Donald was out, Pollock lacked penetration, Steyn on only started hitting his stride at the end of Haydens career, and Morkel was rubbish until after Hayden retired.

The guy holding the attack together in the mid 2000s was Ntini, who had a nice peak, but is still a bowler who averages close to 40 away... not exactly a worldbeater, basically Siddle with more favourable home conditions.

And then you had the rest. Andre Nel was arguably the premier bowler in the side at one stage, and they were playing bowlers like Andrew Hall and Paul Harris, as well as numerous other players who got shorter runs.

Pollock was still good in 02 right?

 

[Bolo.]

Pollock was still good in 02 right?

Don't quote me on this, cos Im drunk off my ass.

But afaicr, his first major ibjury hit in 2001ish, and turned him from fast to FM. Was still a weapon in ODI, but test was different. When he blew his back out properly in 2003/2004, and could only bowl MF.

 

[Gob]

Don't quote me on this, cos Im drunk off my ass.

But afaicr, his first major ibjury hit in 2001ish, and turned him from fast to FM. Was still a weapon in ODI, but test was different. When he blew his back out properly in 2003/2004, and could only bowl MF.

self explanatory

Remember him bowling offspin in a test in 2006

 

[Bolo.]

self explanatory

Remember him bowling offspin in a test in 2006

Seems, more than a little, that you are quoting me.

Ya, it is flat out embarrassing how little incissisjon he had by atg standards at that dtagege

 

[Bolo.]

Seems, more than a little, that you are quoting me.

Ya, it is flat out embarrassing how little incissisjon he had by atg standards at that dtagege

sorry, pls ignore.

i tend to co.fine tjis levle. of drubk.yo mafiaf threads. thinhs happenthough

 

[Gob]

sorry, pls ignore.

i tend to co.fine tjis levle. of drubk.yo mafiaf threads. thinhs happenthough

How much did you drink?

 

[Gob]

There is no better time to call your ex. Get it out of the chest and trust me you'll feel wonderful tomorrow morning

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Fun fact, Donald had retired prior to Smith’s debut.

He played his last Test in the same series that Smith debuted in.

Pollock was still good in 02 right?

Pollock missed the early 2002 home series vs. Australia. He didn't miss any International the year prior.

He played in the 2001/02 away series against Australia when Hayden averaged 100+ against Pollock, Donald, Hayward, Ntini and younger Kallis.

 

[TheJediBrah]

RSA were not a good bowling outfit for most of the overlap between Hayden and Smith.

I'm wondering what they were good at then because they weren't a particularly strong batting line-up in that time either but were still #2 in the world for most of that time IIRC

 

[Bolo.]

I'm wondering what they were good at then because they weren't a particularly strong batting line-up in that time either but were still #2 in the world for most of that time IIRC

RSA slipped down to 6th or 7rh early Smith captaincy on ICC rankings, Partly cos early Smith was a rubbish captain, both tactically and selection wise, but mostly cos the the talent pool was dry. No bowlers.

They had Kallis absolutely monstering it. But he was practically Chanders at that stage. No bowelrs, and a distinct lack of bats.

Point in case, Andrew hall. i have a massive soft spot for him, and somtetimes put him in an rsa odi atg xi, but he may.be the most.incompetent test opener ever, at least feom a 'top draw team'. Or at least i believed that prior to seeing current English team. and yes, i am including the dross England have been fielding for years until now.

 

[TheJediBrah]

tbf to Andy Hall he had a better average as test opener than Neil McKenzie

 

[Prince EWS]

tbf to Andy Hall he had a better average as test opener than Neil McKenzie

Yeah Hall as Test opener was a weird decision but it actually worked pretty well the four times they did it lol.

 

[honestbharani]

The best thing about Andrew Hall was how he bowled a magnificent last over to salvage an ODI for RSA against SA and then was keeping the next game and was brilliant at it, all the while also being good enough to be a dogged opener and also a late order biffer when needed.

Perhaps THE most versatile cricketer I have ever seen.

 

[Athlai]

Surprised at the lack of mentions of Brad Hogg

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah Hall as Test opener was a weird decision but it actually worked pretty well the four times they did it lol.

It was mostly just the one great innings but it was a pretty ****ing good innings

 

[subshakerz]

Steyn, Pollock, Donald, Ntini, Morkel, etc are comparable enough to the Australian attack.

Hayden struggled against Donald/Pollock in the 90s in 4 tests he played.

In 2001 in Australia, he did very well against Donald/Pollock but Donald was on his last legs at this point.

In 2001 in SA, he did well again Pollock was missing and Donald broke down in the 1st test.

In 2005/6, he did well home and away but against Nel and Ntini and a Pollock past his peak.

In 2008, in his last series against SA he faced Steyn and struggled.

Compare that to Smith, who played 7 tests including his debut series against against McWarne or Clark & Warne. In the later part of his career, he struggled against Mitch at home who basically was in God-mode when he came to SA.

I think it is legitimate to critique Smith for not doing well against Australia but I think Hayden wasnt that great against top SA bowling either.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Hayden struggled against Donald/Pollock in the 90s in 4 tests he played.

In 2001 in Australia, he did very well against Donald/Pollock but Donald was on his last legs at this point.

In 2001 in SA, he did well again Pollock was missing and Donald broke down in the 1st test.

In 2005/6, he did well home and away but against Nel and Ntini and a Pollock past his peak.

In 2008, in his last series against SA he faced Steyn and struggled.

Compare that to Smith, who played 7 tests including his debut series against against McWarne or Clark & Warne. In the later part of his career, he struggled against Mitch at home who basically was in God-mode when he came to SA.

I think it is legitimate to critique Smith for not doing well against Australia but I think Hayden wasnt that great against top SA bowling either.

None of that really tells us anything. Hayden in the 90s was not the same player. Likewise 2008 was his last series for a reason, he was on his last legs.

At best what you can conclude from that (assuming it's all a fair assessment) is that peak Hayden and peak SA bowling didn't cross paths at all.

 

[subshakerz]

None of that really tells us anything. Hayden in the 90s was not the same player. Likewise 2008 was his last series for a reason, he was on his last legs.

At best what you can conclude from that (assuming it's all a fair assessment) is that peak Hayden and peak SA bowling didn't cross paths at all.

My point is that Hayden's record against SA is somewhat similar to Smith's against Australia, in that they cashed in when their respective attacks were weaker. Just giving a raw average when they played against each other doesnt really tell the story.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I always thought Andrew Hall was a poor man's Justin Kemp (who was a poor man's Klusener).
I remember one ODI series when Kemp beat NZ so many times when we were on top.

 

[Prince EWS]

I always thought Andrew Hall was a poor man's Justin Kemp (who was a poor man's Klusener).
I remember one ODI series when Kemp beat NZ so many times when we were on top.

Hall was pretty different. His main use was a a reserve swinging yorker death bowler. He had value with the bat for sure (and the gloves occassionally lol) but it was more as a competent strike-rotator (in ODIs) or a blunter (in Tests); he wasn't a power hitter like Kemp or Klusener.