The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[h_hurricane]

Because as explained by many already here ATG bowler who is also an ATG allrounder is of greater output to the team than ATG batsman or ATG bowler.

Imran is not just a very good allrounder. You are selling him really short there.

 

[kyear2]

Imran is arguably the greatest cricketer not named Bradman, that's why

I just don't see how. And to avoid appearance of bias, not even going to use Sobers.

He is not in my opinion a top 10 bowler. Again, my opinion, he just isn't. As a pure batsman, on an ATG scale he is sub par. And his best batting days didn't coincide with his best bowling days.

How is he better than even Hadlee. As in my and most persons comparisons between Sobers and Kallis, the primary weighting factor is the primary skill. Hadlee is the better bowler and not far off as an effective no. 8.

How is he better than Kallis ATG batsman who in my opinion was a better and more impactful 5th bowler than Imran was a lower order batsman. Then we have Kallis slip catching that I will always argue is more impactful than a good lower order batsman. Your bowlers and team rely more on that cordon to win games than a strong tail. Not saying having a tail that can wag isn't important. It is, just less for me.

And again, it's also about playing the game it should be played , all that factors into greatness. Imran is legit all time great, unquestioned best after Bradman in the game. I can't see it.

 

[h_hurricane]

I think OS was just giving back one arguable word as Logan had many arguable ones but not one unarguable.

 

[Logan]

A great all rounder is one who can win matches with both the bat and ball IMO.

Imran Khan’s batting record is overrated IMO.

Scored 2 centuries in his first 60 Tests.

His average is boosted by having 25 not outs in 125 innings(20%). Botham had 6 not outs in 160 innings(3.7%)

An ATG bowler. But as a batsman not as good as Botham.

 

[h_hurricane]

There can be a case made for Imran not as good as what his batting or bowling average suggests. Botham was a better batsman than him. Even then, it is hard to ignore the overall output he brings to the team.

For me, Sobers remains the only all rounder truly ahead of Imran. Kallis vs Imran is splitting hairs, I would just about go with Imran, but can understand Kallis being rated higher by many.

 

[Coronis]

I just don't see how. And to avoid appearance of bias, not even going to use Sobers.

He is not in my opinion a top 10 bowler. Again, my opinion, he just isn't. As a pure batsman, on an ATG scale he is sub par. And his best batting days didn't coincide with his best bowling days.

How is he better than even Hadlee. As in my and most persons comparisons between Sobers and Kallis, the primary weighting factor is the primary skill. Hadlee is the better bowler and not far off as an effective no. 8.

How is he better than Kallis ATG batsman who in my opinion was a better and more impactful 5th bowler than Imran was a lower order batsman. Then we have Kallis slip catching that I will always argue is more impactful than a good lower order batsman. Your bowlers and team rely more on that cordon to win games than a strong tail. Not saying having a tail that can wag isn't important. It is, just less for me.

And again, it's also about playing the game it should be played , all that factors into greatness. Imran is legit all time great, unquestioned best after Bradman in the game. I can't see it.

I agree that Imran’s batting average is quite flattering, but the difference between Imran and Hadlee’s batting is bigger than the bowling difference. I know how set you are personally with how you tier and rank ATG’s in both disciplines but its not that simple.

 

[vcs]

In terms of sheer impact alone, it is hard to beat Muralitharan. Before SL's win in SA this year, the man was absolutely instrumental in nearly everything Sri Lanka have achieved as a cricketing nation.

 

[Logan]

For me, Sobers remains the only all rounder truly ahead of Imran. Kallis vs Imran is splitting hairs, I would just about go with Imran, but can understand Kallis being rated higher by many.

It basically comes down to whether Kallis as a bowler was better than Imran as a batsman.

 

[Slifer]

Just curious. Why is it Imran Khan?

Sachin Tendulkar is arguably the greatest Test batsman not named Don Bradman and arguably the best ODI batsman too.

Muttiah Muralitharan is arguably the greatest spin bowler ever in both formats.

While Imran Khan was a great bowler, he is a Top 10 Test bowler at best. Very good all rounder but not the best.

Imran could arguably be ranked the best bowler. As much as you think sachin is the second best test batsman there are just as many batsmen who could be reasonably ranked above him. I think if I'm not mistaken imran achieved the highest ranking ever by a bowler. Also, he performed outstandingly vs the great team of his time. If sachin gets props for averaging 40+ vs all comers, then so should imran for averaging sub 30 vs all comers. And that's comparing them on their primary skills. Imran may be overrated as a batsman but he certainly was no slouch either. Plus he literally lead his team from the brink to a WC etc.

Sachin batting >= Imran bowling
Sachin bowling <<< imran batting
Sachin captain<<< imran captain

 

[Malcolm]

Which format are we talking about?

 

[Logan]

I said Sachin is “arguably” the second best batsman ever.

Don’t think Imran is a Top 5 bowler.

 

[sunilz]

This thread is only for test. There is separate thread for ODI

 

[Logan]

Which format are we talking about?

For me, whether it is just Tests or both formats; it is Sachin and Murali.

 

[sunilz]

I said Sachin is “arguably” the second best batsman ever.

Don’t think Imran is a Top 5 bowler.

This is why he put the sign greater than equal to.

 

[harsh.ag]

1. Sachin
2. Imran
3. Murali
4. Wasim
5. Gavaskar

for me

 

[Red]

Such a racist post going under the Radar. Imagine what would happen if it was posted "who is the greatest white cricketer of all time".

Nah...

Racism - "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

 

[Red]

A genuine question.

Do most Australian cricket fans have a problem with Murali’s action because they couldn’t accept that someone from a small island called SriLanka was better than their own spinner Shane Warne?

Personally, there are questions on his action (but it was cleared by the ICC, so here we are) , but more so it's to do with the fact that he played 25 tests against Bang and Zim, yielding almost 200 of his wickets in those games, while Warne played only 3 tests against those two nations.

The other factor is Warne was a complete master of cricket's hardest skill, while Murali was an offie.

 

[kyear2]

Personally, there are questions on his action (but it was cleared by the ICC, so here we are) , but more so it's to do with the fact that he played 25 tests against Bang and Zim, yielding almost 200 of his wickets in those games, while Warne played only 3 tests against those two nations.

The other factor is Warne was a complete master of cricket's hardest skill, while Murali was an offie.

Not sure if the last part matters. If I'm picking a team I want the person who is best suited to take the most wickets.

 

[Red]

Not sure if the last part matters. If I'm picking a team I want the person who is best suited to take the most wickets.

I think some people (and if I am honest, I probably agree) still think that Murali's action being cleared wasn't the right thing, but anyway. It does play into my thought processes, though. Personally I think that in a ATG team, you're gonna get a pretty similar output from either Murali or Warne with the ball, but I'd be inclined to go with a guy who mastered cricket's hardest art over one who had a lot of question marks over the legitimacy of his action.

In all this, I am not saying Murali wasn't a great bowler, he absolutely was. I just think Warne did a far more difficult thing at the same level of output, and is therefore a better bowler.

 

[Slifer]

I rate Murali on the same level as Warne ; coin toss really. After watching him bowl in that shoulder brace thingy there's no doubt in my mind that his action was clean. Afaic his wickets vs Zimbabwe/Bangladesh might raise eyebrows but you swap those tests for a team like NZ, Wi, RSA or England and he'd still probably end up with the same number wickets if only at a minuscule higher average. Murali was a fking beast!!