The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[CricAddict]

Using England as an example they could potentially have Sutcliffe, hobbs, Hutton, Hammond, Knott, Ames, Trueman, Barnes in a world xi

Wi could have Lara, viv, sobers, marshall, ambrose
South Africa Donald, steyn, kallis, pollock G,
Etc.

The point is, aside from Bradman no other Australian is a sho in for an all time world xi. Depending on what you value Gilchrist has knott, ames etc as competition, McGrath well any of about a dozen other atg pacemen, ditto smith, and warne obviously has murali . Yeah Australia are the best but it's not daylight or anything. Even in his time Bradmans Australian teams were never daylight above the England teams of his time.

Gilchrist has knott, ames etc as competition, - Gilchrist was a great keeper as well. So in whichever factor you value, he was better
McGrath well any of about a dozen other atg pacemen, - Who else apart from Marshall and Ambrose?
ditto smith, - Yes for now. But that will be clear by the time he retires, even if he retires today
warne obviously has murali - agreed

Yes, WI has the next set of ATGs and that is why I placed WI in the next tier. When you include Eng, SA etc, it is just stretching.

 

[CricAddict]

Gavaskar-Sehwag-Dravid-Tendulkar-Kohli vs Hanif-Anwar-inzi-Younis-miandad. India's is clearly better but I wouldn't say the gap is as wide as the one between the two pace attacks.

Yes, but what about the spinners?

 

[Slifer]

Not really.

India's batting >>Pakistan batting
Pakistan's bowling > India's

will be the right one. Since India's spinners are better than the neighbours'.

Assuming Ashwin is India's number one spinner well he is decent outside the subcontinent, and India has no atg fast bowler atm. Pakistan has 3 legitimate atg fast bowlers (and fazal and shoaib) and though saqlain is probably inferior to ashwin or jadeja or whoever there is a much bigger gap in pace bowling. This really isn't debatable.

 

[ataraxia]

Gavaskar-Sehwag-Dravid-Tendulkar-Kohli vs Hanif-Anwar-inzi-Younis-miandad. India's is clearly better but I wouldn't say the gap is as wide as the one between the two pace attacks.

Yeah, India takes batting and spinning (plus wicketkeeping) by substantial margins, Pakistan take seaming by an enormous margin. It seems on the basis of this that India have a reasonably-sized margin over their rivals but Pakistan's seamers can take apart a strong lineup. Perhaps that should be rated more.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yes, but what about the spinners?

I don't think there's a massive difference between any spinner India picks and Qadir/saqlain. Certainly not to the level of imran khan vs Javagal Srinath. Not like we have a murali or a Warne to pick.

 

[CricAddict]

Yeah, India takes batting and spinning (plus wicketkeeping) by substantial margins, Pakistan take seaming by an enormous margin. It seems on the basis of this that India have a reasonably-sized margin over their rivals but Pakistan's seamers can take apart a strong lineup. Perhaps that should be rated more.

Yes. Slifer, this is exactly what I am saying. At the end, it comes to whether you rate a strong batting+keeping+spin line-up more or a very strong pace line up more. Reiterating my first post, I am saying that India is rightly 5th at the moment but can potentially move up the ladder if they can correct that pace part through Bumrah and Shami when they retire.

 

[Slifer]

Gilchrist has knott, ames etc as competition, - Gilchrist was a great keeper as well. So in whichever factor you value, he was better
McGrath well any of about a dozen other atg pacemen, - Who else apart from Marshall and Ambrose?
ditto smith, - Yes for now. But that will be clear by the time he retires, even if he retires today
warne obviously has murali - agreed

Yes, WI has the next set of ATGs and that is why I placed WI in the next tier. When you include Eng, SA etc, it is just stretching.

England can legitimately have the two openers, any two of Hobbs, Hutton, or Sutcliffe. Hammond could most certainly make an atg middle order. He has as much right being there as any other atg plus he was a decent part time bowler. Barnes well he needs no introduction. The point is, aside from Bradman, no other Australian is a sho in for a world xi. But yeah Australia does have the best team. I will never argue against that.

 

[vcs]

It's well and good having an ATG pace battery, but what's the guarantee they all get along with each other and don't take money to underperform?

 

[OverratedSanity]

It's well and good having an ATG pace battery, but what's the guarantee they all get along with each other and don't take money to underperform?

Tbf, this applies to Kapil too.

 

[ataraxia]

Assuming Ashwin is India's number one spinner well he is decent outside the subcontinent, and India has no atg fast bowler atm. Pakistan has 3 legitimate atg fast bowlers (and fazal and shoaib) and though saqlain is probably inferior to ashwin or jadeja or whoever there is a much bigger gap in pace bowling. This really isn't debatable.

Kumble should be India's number one spinner by that factor alone IMO. Ashwin and Jadeja's contributions with the bat are what put them in XIs (Ashwin's in anyway but his case is strengthened a lot).

Kapil as a player is an ATG, and with bowling alone is probably still, depending on your bar. Rating the batting is the key here.

 

[Slifer]

I don't think there's a massive difference between any spinner India picks and Qadir/saqlain. Certainly not to the level of imran khan vs Javagal Srinath. Not like we have a murali or a Warne to pick.

This. If ashwin or jadeja were more warne like ie great outside their home country (or continent) then the bowling might've been closer. As it is jadeja and ashwin if they retired now imo they would be greats but along the lines of say a Mathew Hayden who was a home track bully.

 

[vcs]

Pakistan were quite beatable at home in the '90s when they had Wasim/Waqar/Mushtaq Ahmed etc in their pomp. India rarely drew or lost at home even back then, with the likes of Mohanty spearheading our pace attack. Just saying.

 

[Slifer]

It's well and good having an ATG pace battery, but what's the guarantee they all get along with each other and don't take money to underperform?

Lmao!! True!!

 

[OverratedSanity]

Pakistan were quite beatable at home in the '90s when they had Wasim/Waqar/Mushtaq Ahmed etc in their pomp. India rarely drew or lost at home even back then, with the likes of Mohanty spearheading our pace attack. Just saying.

Just goes to show cricket isn't played on spreadsheets I suppose. On paper that team was incredible.

 

[ataraxia]

It's well and good having an ATG pace battery, but what's the guarantee they all get along with each other and don't take money to underperform?

The Pakistani trio all played together, surely they'll get along. No opinion on the second clause...

 

[mr_mister]

Pakistan were quite beatable at home in the '90s when they had Wasim/Waqar/Mushtaq Ahmed etc in their pomp. India rarely drew or lost at home even back then, with the likes of Mohanty spearheading our pace attack. Just saying.

You don't need much from your pace bowlers on Indian pitches tbf

 

[Slifer]

Pakistan were quite beatable at home in the '90s when they had Wasim/Waqar/Mushtaq Ahmed etc in their pomp. India rarely drew or lost at home even back then, with the likes of Mohanty spearheading our pace attack. Just saying.

Pakistan in the 90s had the 3rd best win-loss ratio if memory serves me correctly. And unlike now, the competition then was serious. Atg Australian team, declining but still strong wi team, strong RSA teams etc.

 

[ankitj]

Krejza is the man for spin in India. Took 12 wickets each test he played there.

Still only averaged 30. Interesting.

BTW if I had to choose a spinner who I think is most likely to succeed if they toured one more time, I would say Saqlain Mushtaq. Don't need to look up stats before making that call.

 

[ankitj]

Australia
West Indies
England
South Africa
India
Pakistan
SL/NZ
Zimbabwe
Ban/Afg
Ireland

IMO the order for ATG XIs. But yes, Aus and to a lesser extent WI are far ahead of the others in both departments (ofc WI spin is not good but is still okay and often unneeded).

India ahead of Pakistan seems tenable today but 5-10 years back, I would have said Pakistan ATG XI comfortably trumps India's.

 

[Slifer]

I'd really like to know what india has done recently that have shot them past their next door neighbors?? None of the current indian bowlers are world beating atgs. Bumrah has done excellent so far but really 12 tests??!! The rest have done well but overall nothing on Wasim and co. Jadeja and ashwin are legit but more so at home than anything else, which for an indian spinner is nothing new.

Ranking the top 10 india/Pakistan batsmen and bowlers:

Sachin
Gavaskar
Dravid
Kohli
Javed
Younis
Inzi
Yousuff
Sehwag
Saeed

Imran
Wasim
Waqar
Fazal
Ashwin
Dev
Kumble
Shoaib
Saqlain
Jadeja/Chandra ??