From Rabble to Glory - Players and Teams that started off crap but got much better

[Mr Miyagi]

You're absolutely a hypocrite tho. And passive aggressive to the extreme. We're talking massive bitch levels. Keyboard warrior of the highest calibre. Verges to the point that it seems you're genuinely mentally not all there and you genuinely do not get what an annpying piece of **** you're being.

Jet Li and Jackie Chan called, they're scared of the Bangladeshi who lives with his parents walking around Hong Kong.

 

[Bolo]

I for one think Cairns would have been a part of the Aus team of the late 90's. Don't forget he debuted in 1990, back when Australia wasn't the powerhouse they would become later. It not unrealistic to suggest the team could have built around a middle/lower order of the Waugh twins, Cairns and then Healy at No 8 during the early 90's. By the late 90's Cairns would be well established, possibly even delaying the debut of Lee.

Lee (with seemingly really high potential), Fleming, and macgill were all fighting for a single place in the late 90s. I don't really have an opinion on whether Cairns would have made it, but it's a tough time to be a bowler.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Lee (with seemingly really high potential), Fleming, and macgill were all fighting for a single place in the late 90s. I don't really have an opinion on whether Cairns would have made it, but it's a tough time to be a bowler.

You're being really generous to Flem.

Cains is a walk in. Flem is throwing throw downs imo.

 

[Bolo]

You're being really generous to Flem.

CAirns is a walk in. Flen is throwing throw downs imo.

I didn't see much of him, but I rated him well above Lee or Cairns. Can't really compare him to macgill.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I didn't see much of him, but I rated him well above Lee or Cairns. Can't really compare him to macgill.

Flem was a great tactician. As a player - he had a great top gear (see in SA), but it was long way from his regular gear (see everywhere else - unfortunately).

I'd love to defend Flem - his talent - undeniable. His results - much tougher! When the going got tough - the tough only sometime got Flem

 

[jimmy101]

Lee (with seemingly really high potential), Fleming, and macgill were all fighting for a single place in the late 90s. I don't really have an opinion on whether Cairns would have made it, but it's a tough time to be a bowler.

Indeed. Throw Reiffel and Bichel into the mix too. Not easy. Interestingly, the late 90's were probably Cairns' peak years. He had a lot of experience as a bowler at that point. I also think the fact that Australia were selecting Julian, and occasionally playing Bevan as an all rounder, indicates to me that the Aus selectors were craving a genuine all-rounder of some description. Someone of the Keith Miller/Richie Benaud mould.

Amazing how Robertson and Muller snuck into the team around that time.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Indeed. Throw Reiffel and Bichel into the mix too. Not easy. Interestingly, the late 90's were probably Cairns' peak years. He had a lot of experience as a bowler at that point. I also think the fact that Australia were selecting Julian, and occasionally playing Bevan as an all rounder, indicates to me that the Aus selectors were craving a genuine all-rounder of some description. Someone of the Keith Miller/Richie Benaud mould.

Amazing how Robertson and Muller snuck into the team around that time.

Bevan was a result of Taylor sucking as a bat. Yes, he was chosen to support the batting while bowling. Cairns could have done this no - end.

Taylor got his groove back - and Bevan was dropped for MacGill. For both bowling and Taylor scoring reasons.

Warne refers to this often, think it is in his autobiography.

 

[jimmy101]

Nathan Astle would have been in with a shout of the late-90's Aus team too.

Or should I post that in the unpopular opinions thread? ?

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Nathan Astle would have been in with a shout of the late-90's Aus team too.

Or should I post that in the unpopular opinions thread? ��

No Astle wouldn't have been.

Yes - post it there.

I stand firm.

Only Cairns would have made it - but Styris over MWaugh would have been even more entertaining imo. Styris may not be kissing any princesses soon, but his batting was prettier than watching a toad. (and I adore M Waugh the ODI batsman).

 

[Bolo]

Indeed. Throw Reiffel and Bichel into the mix too. Not easy. Interestingly, the late 90's were probably Cairns' peak years. He had a lot of experience as a bowler at that point. I also think the fact that Australia were selecting Julian, and occasionally playing Bevan as an all rounder, indicates to me that the Aus selectors were craving a genuine all-rounder of some description. Someone of the Keith Miller/Richie Benaud mould.

Amazing how Robertson and Muller snuck into the team around that time.

Reifell was good, but I would have picked Cairns I think. If bichel was getting game time it's fair to assume Cairns would as well. Maybe not as a consistent starter though.

 

[jimmy101]

An interesting comparison IMO would be late 90s NSW vs a combined NZ/rest of Australia team.

Slater
Taylor*
M Waugh
S Waugh
Bevan
B McNamara
Haddin+
Lee
Robertson
MacGill
McGrath

Vs

Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Astle
Martyn
Lehmann
Healy/Gilly+
Cairns/Reiffel
Bichel/Fleming/Lee
Warne
Gillespie

It's late here so I probably forgot someone obvious.

 

[Victor Ian]

To make it into the Aussie team during that era took a very long span of great form. Cairns may have been considered, but that's it. On the other hand, he WAS a match fixer, and we have not had one of those yet.

 

[trundler]

An interesting comparison IMO would be late 90s NSW vs a combined NZ/rest of Australia team.

Slater
Taylor*
M Waugh
S Waugh
Bevan
B McNamara
Haddin+
Lee
Robertson
MacGill
McGrath

Vs

Hayden
Langer
Ponting
Astle
Martyn
Lehmann
Healy/Gilly+
Cairns/Reiffel
Bichel/Fleming/Lee
Warne
Gillespie

It's late here so I probably forgot someone obvious.

The NSW team has the better top order and middle order. The rest of Oceania team's top order really became effective in the 00s. Astle-Martyn-Lehman looks better but the Waughs were probably better in the 90s specifically. This is actually very interesting. An NSW all time XI is as good as and even better than any other national atg side too.

 

[trundler]

To make it into the Aussie team during that era took a very long span of great form. Cairns may have been considered, but that's it. On the other hand, he WAS a match fixer, and we have not had one of those yet.

Didn't Lillee and co bet against themselves on losing to the English in 81'?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Nathan Astle would have been in with a shout of the late-90's Aus team too.

Or should I post that in the unpopular opinions thread? ��

Astle would have been an average Shield player. If guys like Law, Love, Hodge, Siddons, Blewett, Elliott, Cox etc. couldn't make the side regularly it's a bit strange to think Astle would.

Even guys like Lehmann who averaged 50 in the Shield and 60 in County cricket for years in a row struggled to get at best brief look-ins. You think I guy averaging 35 would?

 

[jimmy101]

Astle would have been an average Shield player. If guys like Law, Love, Hodge, Siddons, Blewett, Elliott, Cox etc. couldn't make the side regularly it's a bit strange to think Astle would.

Even guys like Lehmann who averaged 50 in the Shield and 60 in County cricket for years in a row struggled to get at best brief look-ins. You think I guy averaging 35 would?

Huh, never realised Astle's FC average was only 37. Exact same number as his Test average.

 

[the big bambino]

I agree Cairns would have played tests for Aus in the period but this was a combined XI for the era and he could be seen as a luxury in that selection. You wont need too many overs out of him with McGrath and Warne in the side and how often will you need runs with him at 8? In trying to fit him in I'd look elsewhere and bat him at 6 or 7 so he replaces a batsman for mine. So Martyn would go to fit him in. I'd definitely consider it since Gilchrist so often succeeded when 5 wickets were down and the game was tight. Then his bowling allows you the option of axing Lee and playing McGill. So all up I'd play Cairns at six in that combined XI.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I agree Cairns would have played tests for Aus in the period but this was a combined XI for the era and he could be seen as a luxury in that selection. You wont need too many overs out of him with McGrath and Warne in the side and how often will you need runs with him at 8? In trying to fit him in I'd look elsewhere and bat him at 6 or 7 so he replaces a batsman for mine. So Martyn would go to fit him in. I'd definitely consider it since Gilchrist so often succeeded when 5 wickets were down and the game was tight. Then his bowling allows you the option of axing Lee and playing McGill. So all up I'd play Cairns at six in that combined XI.

**** no. You lose a lot more by replacing Martyn with Cairns than you gain by having him as a 5th bowler. A lot more.

If Cairns plays in that Aus team it's as a 3rd seamer.

edit: IMO. Didn't intend to sound so harsh lol

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I agree Cairns would have played tests for Aus in the period but this was a combined XI for the era and he could be seen as a luxury in that selection. You wont need too many overs out of him with McGrath and Warne in the side and how often will you need runs with him at 8? In trying to fit him in I'd look elsewhere and bat him at 6 or 7 so he replaces a batsman for mine. So Martyn would go to fit him in. I'd definitely consider it since Gilchrist so often succeeded when 5 wickets were down and the game was tight. Then his bowling allows you the option of axing Lee and playing McGill. So all up I'd play Cairns at six in that combined XI.

**** no. You lose a lot more by replacing Martyn with Cairns than you gain by having him as a 5th bowler. A lot more.

If Cairns plays in that Aus team it's as a 3rd seamer.

edit: IMO. Didn't intend to sound so harsh lol

You can really do both. 3rd seamer for most pitches, bambino's suggestion for the SCG or pitches expected to turn later in the game.

Pretty sure that was how Watto got a lot of his test starts - so as to to fit MacGill and Warne both in.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You can, but you shouldn't.

Say it was Aus of the 2010s with a number 6 barely averaging 40 (or less) then sure, get Cairns in there, because you don't really lose much in the batting department.

If you're taking out Ponting, Martyn, Clarke or Hussey who are averaging 50+ for most of their careers? Not a chance. That Aus team never really needed a 5th bowler anyway.