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South Africa team selection

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Its been an issue in SA selection for a long time... Gibbs was not a franchise opener was he? Did well at test level though. Neither was Petersen, McKenzie etc... the chopping and changing we have had at openers since 2000 and trying to manufacture middle order into openers is actually ridiculous .
Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

I agree I would prefer that we just picked Markarm if we did not want to pick Cook... but I think Cook will open in England. For me its Markram in for Cook and de Bruyn in for Duminy if we must, but neither will happen (outside Bangladesh series!) will happen in the next 12 months unless somebody just gets into truly horrific form.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Agree. Didn't they even try Boeta Dippenaar and jacques Rudolph there who both weren't out-and-out openers. Having batted 3/4 in their careers. Alviro Petersen probably in a similar boat as was opening for a period before selection.

I think Gibbs was such a natural and I think Rossouw is similar in many ways and if anybody could do it I think Rossouw could have but that history now.

Looking back it has been a bigger issue than most realise. I just hope moving forward there is no more mixing and match to scramble minds. International cricket is hard enough.

I agree I would prefer that we just picked Markarm if we did not want to pick Cook... but I think Cook will open in England. For me its Markram in for Cook and de Bruyn in for Duminy if we must, but neither will happen (outside Bangladesh series!) will happen in the next 12 months unless somebody just gets into truly horrific form.
I think so too.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Like TT Boy mentioned earlier. Philander has got to be a concern. I know he had an injury after Aus tour but he has no zip at the moment and batsmen can adjust.

He has 2 wickets @ 83 this series.
 
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SeamUp

International Coach
Elgar
Markram
De Bruyn
Amla
Faf
Bavuma
QdK
Maharaj
Rabada
2 of Steyn, Morkel, Philander

Zondo
Piedt, Shamsi
Morris, Parnell, Olivier, Ngidi
 
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akilana

International 12th Man
Like TT Boy mentioned earlier. Philander has got to be a concern. I know he had an injury after Aus tour but he has no zip at the moment and batsmen can adjust.

He has 2 wickets @ 83 this series.
That is why Abbott's loss is massive. He had about 4 years in him and is the perfect replacement/cover. Can't afford to have Philander and Morkel in the same team if Vern's pace is down. If he acts as a containing bowler, you need 2 proper strike bowlers. Morkel is unlikely to run through a side so it puts more pressure on young Rabada. If Steyn is fit, it isn't big deal.

De Kock bailing out this team every time he walks out to bat hasn't helped the SA team because the selectors believe it is a winning team and needs no change. If they aren't proactive, theere will be embarassing losses.

Faf needs to convert his 50s into hundreds and Bavuma needs to put away hook shots. Lost count how many times he lost his wicket trying to hook and pull.
 

Bahseph

International Debutant
The fact that we have been winning Test matches since the NZ series last year even though we have had a bunch of inconsistent players is really surprising.

I wouldn't be counting Philander as done just yet, but I'm at the end of my tether when it comes to Duminy and our obsession with creating an opener. We lose too many potential middle order stalwarts by experimenting with them at the top.

We have enough quality seamers and a few budding spinners for our attack the sort itself out. But the tactical make up of our batting line up lets us down very often.
 

Bahseph

International Debutant
If nothing changes before the England series with regards to our top 7 we are going to be in some trouble ?
 

SeamUp

International Coach
So what do selectors do now ? Get on their hands and knees to Abraham ?

We all knew we had a decent generation below Smith, Gibbs, Kallis, Boucher, Pollock, Ntini that contributed to our success world wide for a sustained period of time but they all starting to get to that age now where we need the next generation to start stepping up with Qdk/Rabada.

34 - Amla, Steyn
33 - AB, Faf, JP, Morkel
32 - Philander

The above are getting past the peak of their powers.

We can't deny we've lost some useful players like Rossouw, van Zyl and Abbott in that next category but I still think there is enough talent to survive without them. But it needs brave selections and even brave coaching.
 
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Stefan9

International Debutant
Changes are needed. Time for some brave decision making:

1.elgar
2.Markram
3.de bruyn
4.amla
5.faf
6.bavuma/zondo
7.qdk
8.maharaj
9.radaba
10.morkel
11.steyn/olivier
 

Rasimione

U19 Captain
Duminy and Cook are surely done as test players. I imagine Makram and Zondo will come in for them. Long term I'd imagine the team might look like this.

1 Makram
2 Elgar
3 Amla
4 De Bruyn
5 Amla
5 Du Plessis
6 Bavuma/Zondo
7 De Kock
8 Philander
9 Maharaj
10 Rabada
11 Morkel

If Steyn does come back then I'm guessing De Bruyn could be asked to open permanently with Zondo and Bavuma in the same team. (Qouta considerations)
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It always takes a loss for brave selections.
Well we are probably going to get our loss.....

I can not see the core set of players Amla/DeVillers/Faf/Duminy(unfortunately)/Philander/Steyn/Morkel being removed until after the next WC in 2019, even if some are only 'Test' players they are all part of the current team culture. It is an obvious goal for many, and as much as I like Domingo he will stay on until then and ensure this core players are maintained. I feel currently we are holding onto the old guard to much. The selection of Morkel showed this to me because as well as he has done, to only play a couple of first class games and come straight back into the team in front of Olivier, Parnell and Morris says much to the current management thinking...

Of the new crop in the team Elgar is needed and has improved over time, even if more is needed from him. Bavuma is an issue but he has shown enough mental determination, often enough, for me to be happy to continue on with him for now. But he needs to stop getting out in stupid ways. QDK and Rabada seem obvious critical components to SA cricket for the next 10 years.

I would immediately bring in Markram into the test squad and probably Zonda, dropping Cook and Duminy. This is what our test team should look like next test

Elgar
Markram
Amla
Faf
De Bruyn
Bavuma
QDK
Philander
Maharaj
Rabada
Olivier

If forced I would move QDK into top 6 and play Parnell at 7, to counteract Duminy from a quota point of view He will provide just as much with the bat and more with the ball. Morris, Parnell, Smith, Savage, Ngidi and Pheklukwayo must be considered as well sooner rather than later. None of this is likely to happen though.
 

Dendarii

International Debutant
I can not see the core set of players Amla/DeVillers/Faf/Duminy(unfortunately)/Philander/Steyn/Morkel being removed until after the next WC in 2019, even if some are only 'Test' players they are all part of the current team culture. It is an obvious goal for many, and as much as I like Domingo he will stay on until then and ensure this core players are maintained. I feel currently we are holding onto the old guard to much. The selection of Morkel showed this to me because as well as he has done, to only play a couple of first class games and come straight back into the team in front of Olivier, Parnell and Morris says much to the current management thinking...
I think part of the problem is that because the old guard have performed so well for us over the years, there's a bit too much loyalty being shown in them. There is definitely an argument in favour of being loyal to players, as knowing that a couple of poor performances won't automatically result in them being dropped does reduce the pressure on them, but the question is how long do you continue to show that loyalty? At some point the tough calls need to be made, but I've got a feeling that with England, India and Australia coming up, the selectors are going to be reluctant to make those calls and could end up placing too much value on players' experience and not enough on their recent performances.
 

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Hash's form is definitely starting to get a bit worrying. :(

I guess his fantastic record in England will keep him secure for at least a couple of Tests, but if SA lose them and he fails, it might be time for a replacement.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hash's form is definitely starting to get a bit worrying. :(

I guess his fantastic record in England will keep him secure for at least a couple of Tests, but if SA lose them and he fails, it might be time for a replacement.
Hash is my favourite player by a long way, his form suffered ever since he captained and he has never got it back properly... shown glimpses but not quite. But it will take much to drop him from the team.

Our top 4 is a mess at the moment; simple as that and a decision needs to be made how SA is going to go forward, can not just leave it as is... but they probably will.
 

Marius

International Debutant
I get what you guys are saying, but I reckon we should give Cook a go against England. Markram is still pretty young and one more season of domestic stuff and SA A games would be good for him I think.

It's not like we have no openers whatsoever and are desperate - we can afford to be patient.

That said Markram should probably be in the squad to the UK. I'm not sure what his off-season deal is, and unless he's playing for a strong English club, it would do him the world of good to tour with the Proteas when we go to the UK.

Khaya Zondo should also be there or thereabouts, and I don't think Bavuma's place is as secure as it could be. Zondo had a good season, and he deserves a call-up, especially after the fiasco in India, with his previous national call-up.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Have a read of this. Can't be more true. I honestly thought he would go down as one of Western Province/SA greats after his amazing FC career with stylish looks and then the Australian wonders followed.

https://callingthroughthefog.wordpress.com/2017/03/28/the-luckiest-cricketer-in-south-africa/

THE LUCKIEST CRICKETER IN SOUTH AFRICA

In cricket, one name stands alone as a monument to unrealized potential and endless, frustrating failure: Graeme Hick.

The big Zimbabwean-turned-Englishman hit the English County scene like a club to the skull, and he seemed destined to become the square-jawed matinee idol of the international game. Season after season he put County attacks to the sword, eventually amassing 41,000 First Class runs including 136 centuries. But when the inevitable Test call-up came, the results were a crushing disappointment.

Sixteen years after the end of his international career, Hick remains the go-to reference when talk turns to underachieving players.

Which must be a great relief for a certain JP Duminy, AKA the Luckiest Cricketer in South Africa.

Duminy’s innings at Hamilton on Monday, embarrassingly ended by an unchallenged straight ball, was his 72nd in Tests, and took his career run tally to 2086.

After 72 innings, Graeme Hick had scored 2591 runs.

You read right. The game’s greatest underachiever had outscored Duminy by half a thousand runs at the same point in his career.

Of course, one can’t base on argument on just one example, so here are a couple more that show just how hopelessly out of his depth Duminy is.

Neil McKenzie was thrown a lifeline in 2008 after last playing a Test in 2004. He responded by scoring 1073 Test runs that year, more than Sachin Tendulkar, Michael Clarke and AB de Villiers. Three months into 2009 his Test career was over. (Duminy has never scored more than 419 runs in a year.) After 72 innings, McKenzie had scored 2599 runs to Duminy’s 2086.

Hansie Cronje revitalized South African cricket in the mid-1990s and played some mighty knocks in his time, but most pundits agree that he probably wouldn’t have had a Test career if he hadn’t been such a charismatic captain. He was weak against the short ball, and far too often made an attractive 35 where a dogged 135 was needed. But after 72 innings the often-fragile Cronje had managed 2352 runs.

Just behind Cronje, at 2290 after 72 innings, is Jacques Rudolph, who was facing howls of criticism at this point in his career and was a year away from being permanently dumped out of Test cricket.

Some Proteas didn’t even last 67 innings: they were axed by selectors who considered them to be a grave liability or simply not up to Test standard any more.

Remember Andrew Hudson? Hudders who, in the late 1990s, was considered almost supernaturally dismissal-prone and someone who needed to be ditched as soon as possible? Hudson played 63 Test innings in total and yet he still managed to score 2007 runs. After 63 innings, JP Hick, sorry, Duminy, had scored 1797: 210 runs fewer than a man who was considered a walking wicket and lucky to be selected.

More recently there was Alviro Petersen, eased out of the international game after 36 Tests and 64 innings. Petersen played some memorable knocks but nobody ever seriously believed that he was a Test blue-blood. And yet in his 64 innings he amassed 2093 runs. Duminy has played 8 innings more than that, and has yet to match that tally.

The bottom line, evidenced by comings and goings of players over the last 20 years, is that JP Duminy is not a Test batsman and is fantastically lucky to still have a career.

Yes, say his supporters, but that’s unfair: he’s not a Test batsman, he’s a Test allrounder. You can’t judge him by batting standards.

Well OK, but if you’re going to play that game then you need to measure him against other spinning allrounders, and the stats are still damning.

After 55 bowling innings, Duminy has bowled, 435.3 overs, taken 42 wickets @ 36.7.

After the same number of bowling innings, Hick had bowled 496.3 overs, taken 22 at 56.72.

By comparison, Duminy looks pretty good.

That is, until you compare him to some spinning allrounders who can actually bowl.

For starters there’s Bangladeshi star, Shakib Al Hasan. After 55 bowling innings, Shakib had bowled 1548 overs and taken 141 wickets at 32.26. Oh, and after 72 batting innings? He’s scored 2554 runs at over 40… #JustSaying.

Then there’s a certain R Ashwin. After 55 innings he’d bowled 1428.4 overs and taken 157 wickets at 27.29. So more of a specialist bowler, right? Well, Ashwin hasn’t batted as many times as Duminy – 69 innings to Duminy’s 72 – but after those 69 innings Ashwin has scored 1903 runs at 32.25. In short, Ashwin is more or less Duminy’s equal with the bat, and vastly superior with the ball.

The most telling figure here, though, is Duminy’s relatively tiny number of overs bowled. We all know he can bowl and break partnerships, but the point is that he doesn‘t bowl. This is understandable given the potency of the SA pace attack, but the simple fact is that Duminy is being used as a part-time spinner, which means he’s being selected as a specialist batsman. And he simply isn’t that. Not by a long shot.

So next time you hear Graeme Hick’s name being used as a synonym for cricketing failure, suggest that it’s time for an update.
 

Marius

International Debutant
Have a read of this. Can't be more true. I honestly thought he would go down as one of Western Province/SA greats after his amazing FC career with stylish looks and then the Australian wonders followed.

https://callingthroughthefog.wordpress.com/2017/03/28/the-luckiest-cricketer-in-south-africa/

THE LUCKIEST CRICKETER IN SOUTH AFRICA
Ha ha, that was pretty good, Tom Eaton is pretty good when he writes on cricket.

I don't agree with him re: Hudders though, he was a great opener, and he was great to watch when he was playing well. His straight drives were poetry in motion.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Well we are probably going to get our loss.....

I can not see the core set of players Amla/DeVillers/Faf/Duminy(unfortunately)/Philander/Steyn/Morkel being removed until after the next WC in 2019, even if some are only 'Test' players they are all part of the current team culture. It is an obvious goal for many, and as much as I like Domingo he will stay on until then and ensure this core players are maintained. I feel currently we are holding onto the old guard to much. The selection of Morkel showed this to me because as well as he has done, to only play a couple of first class games and come straight back into the team in front of Olivier, Parnell and Morris says much to the current management thinking...

Of the new crop in the team Elgar is needed and has improved over time, even if more is needed from him. Bavuma is an issue but he has shown enough mental determination, often enough, for me to be happy to continue on with him for now. But he needs to stop getting out in stupid ways. QDK and Rabada seem obvious critical components to SA cricket for the next 10 years.

I would immediately bring in Markram into the test squad and probably Zonda, dropping Cook and Duminy. This is what our test team should look like next test

Elgar
Markram
Amla
Faf
De Bruyn
Bavuma
QDK
Philander
Maharaj
Rabada
Olivier

If forced I would move QDK into top 6 and play Parnell at 7, to counteract Duminy from a quota point of view He will provide just as much with the bat and more with the ball. Morris, Parnell, Smith, Savage, Ngidi and Pheklukwayo must be considered as well sooner rather than later. None of this is likely to happen though.
If Morkel and Steyn are fit ?

Morkel arguably been our best quick on this tour.

I think Elgar/Maharaj have shown matching winning abilities. But I agree we probably need more.

With Bavuma we are in a catch 22 aren't we. I think the best thing about getting Markram/de Bruyn in is that it brings Zondo in to put pressure on him. But I have seen Zondo crack under pressure on countless occasions himself although I have been impressed with his captaincy.



I think part of the problem is that because the old guard have performed so well for us over the years, there's a bit too much loyalty being shown in them. There is definitely an argument in favour of being loyal to players, as knowing that a couple of poor performances won't automatically result in them being dropped does reduce the pressure on them, but the question is how long do you continue to show that loyalty? At some point the tough calls need to be made, but I've got a feeling that with England, India and Australia coming up, the selectors are going to be reluctant to make those calls and could end up placing too much value on players' experience and not enough on their recent performances.
That will probably be the issue but my thinking is that if we float along we will be a year behind getting experience into certain players.

Bold decisions. Bold selections. Bold coaching. It has to happen.

It says a lot for the character of some of our players though that we still have done so well in this time.
 

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