Strongest First-Class Competition

[Shri]

I don't agree with this **** too often but I do agree this time.

 

[Jarquis]

Other SA players playing who don't play in SA domestic comps anymore or who never have... Dawid Malan (Middlesex)

Born in Roehampton tbh.

 

[Prince EWS]

What examples are there?

If you name players that did well in the IPL, like Jadeja or Ashwin, and then got put into the international side, that was on the basis of their domestic records (first class and list A). And both of them haven't been in the test side anyway, only the ODI.

There is not one player you can say who was put into the test team on the basis of IPL. Raina was chosen because of his ODI performances (which isn't a good thing, but is not the IPL's fault).

It's a myth that the IPL is being used as the criteria for selecting players.

I know it was only ODIs and not Tests, but I don't think Manpreet Gony had any domestic record to speak of when he was picked for India.

 

[Athlai]

That's like saying the English Premier League isn't the best football league in the world because it has the Championship underneath and division 1 under that, that makes no difference to the quality of the top division.

Yeah but the County Championship includes both divisions. If you were to say the English first division is the strongest first class competition, then you might be right.

 

[Ikki]

A question: Indian seamers, and bowling in general, seems to get big knocks against it for not being of a high standard. The domestic setup isn't lauded for being particularly good either. So how do they produce fine batsmen so regularly? You'd think they'd be shocked by the jump in standard at Test level.

 

[Briony]

I think the Sheffield Shield followed by the SA supersport comp. mainly because there feature only six teams out of a relatively large cricket base. In England the talent is spread too thinly which means you get some very weak attacks and some shallow batting lineups. India obviously has a population advantage but the sub-continental competitions have never been regarded as having as good a structure as their southern hemisphere counterparts.

 

[Jono]

I know it was only ODIs and not Tests, but I don't think Manpreet Gony had any domestic record to speak of when he was picked for India.

His form in the IPL did play a part, but he was the leading wicket taker in the Deodhar Trophy prior to his ODI selection.

 

[chicane]

A question: Indian seamers, and bowling in general, seems to get big knocks against it for not being of a high standard. The domestic setup isn't lauded for being particularly good either. So how do they produce fine batsmen so regularly? You'd think they'd be shocked by the jump in standard at Test level.

There are quality swing bowlers playing in the Ranji trophy, but most don't bowl very quick and there aren't any fast and bouncy pitches. That's why Indian batsmen still get shocked by pace and bounce, but are ok otherwise.

 

[Borges]

A question: Indian seamers, and bowling in general, seems to get big knocks against it for not being of a high standard. The domestic setup isn't lauded for being particularly good either. So how do they produce fine batsmen so regularly? You'd think they'd be shocked by the jump in standard at Test level.

I think most of the big knocks against the Indian domestic set up are made by people who do not follow it first hand. Even among the Indian 'fans', the percentage that follows domestic cricket is miniscule. Indian seamers are routinely slammed by those who do not realize that of the top ten bowlers (wickets taken) in the Ranji, five are seam bowlers. That there are only two spinners in the top twelve wicket takers in the Duleep. That full strength England Lions teams have not fared well against Indian domestic teams, when they participated in the Duleep Trophy.

The only unbiased measure of how strong a FC set up is, is how good the national test side is. Anything else is merely unsubstantiated opinion, usually coloured by patriotic sentiments. I find it laughable that so many posters here think that the Aussie FC set up is currently the strongest; if it were, they would have had a decent test team; they wouldn't have so much trouble in cobbling up a competent eleven. No country which has even a half-decent first class set up would struggle as much as Australia has done to discover players of international class.

India has a massive advantage by sheer largeness of numbers; which is why I rate the South African FC structure as the strongest in the world.

 

[vcs]

I think most of the big knocks against the Indian domestic set up are made by people who do not follow it first hand. Even among the Indian 'fans', the percentage that follows domestic cricket is miniscule. Indian seamers are routinely slammed by those who do not realize that of the top ten bowlers (wickets taken) in the Ranji, five are seam bowlers. That there are only two spinners in the top twelve wicket takers in the Duleep. That full strength England Lions teams have not fared well against Indian domestic teams, when they participated in the Duleep Trophy.

The only unbiased measure of how strong a FC set up is, is how good the national test side is. Anything else is merely unsubstantiated opinion, usually coloured by patriotic sentiments. I find it laughable that so many posters here think that the Aussie FC set up is currently the strongest; if it were, they would have had a decent test team; they wouldn't have so much trouble in cobbling up a competent eleven. No country which has even a half-decent first class set up would struggle as much as Australia has done to discover players of international class.

India has a massive advantage by sheer largeness of numbers; which is why I rate the South African FC structure as the strongest in the world.

This is so true. Even I, who am a pretty diehard cricket fan and have watched international cricket for nearly 2 decades, have only started following the domestic performances of some Indian players after I joined this site. Obviously I was aware of the domestic competitions and teams before, but never followed it at all.

 

[Spark]

I think most of the big knocks against the Indian domestic set up are made by people who do not follow it first hand. Even among the Indian 'fans', the percentage that follows domestic cricket is miniscule. Indian seamers are routinely slammed by those who do not realize that of the top ten bowlers (wickets taken) in the Ranji, five are seam bowlers. That there are only two spinners in the top twelve wicket takers in the Duleep. That full strength England Lions teams have not fared well against Indian domestic teams, when they participated in the Duleep Trophy.

The only unbiased measure of how strong a FC set up is, is how good the national test side is. Anything else is merely unsubstantiated opinion, usually coloured by patriotic sentiments. I find it laughable that so many posters here think that the Aussie FC set up is currently the strongest; if it were, they would have had a decent test team; they wouldn't have so much trouble in cobbling up a competent eleven. No country which has even a half-decent first class set up would struggle as much as Australia has done to discover players of international class.

India has a massive advantage by sheer largeness of numbers; which is why I rate the South African FC structure as the strongest in the world.

Errrr

 

[TumTum]

The only unbiased measure of how strong a FC set up is, is how good the national test side is.

Nah.

 

[Spark]

Indeed. Doesn't matter how good your best domestic players are if for some reason they don't get picked.

 

[TumTum]

Or you could have a case where there are 11 exceptional players in a country that are all in the Test side and the others are mediocre, compared with a country where there are lots of good players and 11 of them make a Test side.

 

[Borges]

Errrr

Ok.Let me add the obvious qualification; in comparison to the times when Australia actually had the strongest domestic FC setup. When they always had eleven players of international class, with more waiting in the sides.

If the best that the FC set up can throw up is twenty eight year old Doherty, or a clearly not yet test-ready Smith, it just can't be a strong one. So Ponting can't follow the tradition of Australian captains and retire when he relinquishes his captaincy; the FC system has just not generated enough viable options for the test side.

 

[Athlai]

That logic would dictate that India is full of quality bowlers.

Therefore that logic is wrong.

 

[Spark]

If the best that the FC set up can throw up is twenty eight year old Doherty, or a clearly not yet test-ready Smith, it just can't be a strong one.

Here's the kicker... it isn't. No one will say the spinning stocks are fantastic here but what got up people nerves so much is that Doherty was picked as a specialist spinner (Smith was picked as a #6 which is also pretty bad IMO) when there was a perfectly competent Test spinner in Hauritz waiting in the wings, and a spinner with an excellent FC record also in the works (O'Keefe)

 

[Borges]

Or you could have a case where there are 11 exceptional players in a country that are all in the Test side and the others are mediocre

Yes you can. Though it starts showing up when some of these 11 exceptional players hang up their boots and replacements of a reasonable quality are not forthcoming even after some four or five years.

 

[Borges]

Here's the kicker... it isn't. No one will say the spinning stocks are fantastic here but what got up people nerves so much is that Doherty was picked as a specialist spinner (Smith was picked as a #6 which is also pretty bad IMO) when there was a perfectly competent Test spinner in Hauritz waiting in the wings, and a spinner with an excellent FC record also in the works (O'Keefe)

Agree with that. Hauritz now, and Krejza earlier.

 

[TumTum]

Yes you can. Though it starts showing up when some of these 11 exceptional players hang up their boots and replacements of a reasonable quality are not forthcoming even after some four or five years.

True. Although if you are suggesting that is the case with Australia, you are wrong because there have been many "reasonable quality" replacements. If you are judging their quality by the length of time they have kept their spots, it could also relate to the strength of the domestic competition where they need to really secure their spots early.