State & Future of New Zealand Cricket

[Matt52]

The demise of players like Te Ahu Davis .

Arent you being a bit harsh there. Davis is younger than taylor and Taylor is 22 so Im guessing the kid is 20 or 21. Its a bit early to talk about his demise. Sherlock is a young guy too. He was in the same team as Taylor for the under19's so he must be 22. They have a long, long way to go. Sherlock would have played more if he hadnt been injured all the time and if he had stayed in Central districts rather than going to the more competitive Canterbury, with more competition for places.

 

[Prince EWS]

Well if Vettori's batting #5, you're really in trouble...

What does that have to do with my point though? They clearly have better players to bat at 6 than Jacob Oram. Your reply smacks of the admission of defeat.

 

[Fiery]

Well so did Michael Slater and Saeed Anwar, and they too had similarities...

I would never have made any association between those two either

 

[Fiery]

Arent you being a bit harsh there. Davis is younger than taylor and Taylor is 22 so Im guessing the kid is 20 or 21. Its a bit early to talk about his demise. Sherlock is a young guy too. He was in the same team as Taylor for the under19's so he must be 22. They have a long, long way to go. Sherlock would have played more if he hadnt been injured all the time and if he had stayed in Central districts rather than going to the more competitive Canterbury, with more competition for places.

Maybe, but he seems to have just fallen off the radar. Hasn't been playing State cricket. Anyone know if he's playing overseas or what he's up to?

 

[NZTailender]

What does that have to do with my point though? They clearly have better players to bat at 6 than Jacob Oram. Your reply smacks of the admission of defeat.

Who, though? J & H Marshall, McMillan, Vincent have all been tried in that area and haven't done brilliantly. The other, better, players bat up the order - Fulton, Fleming, Styris, Astle and Taylor.


We could decide to bat McCullum at 6 and Oram at 7, though. That may make a difference. But doesn't give Oram a chance to do anything but "slog".

He's scored 2 fifties batting at 7, where he has his highest average of 25. When he's been given a chance up the order (3-5. hasn't opened) in 10 innings he's scored about 162 runs, with no not outs and a high score of 59 (batting at 5)

1. N Astle
2. S Fleming
3. R Taylor
4. P Fulton
5. S Styris
6. B McCullum
7. J Oram
8. D Vettori
9. K Mills
10. S Bond
11. M Gillespie/J Patel

???

 

[Prince EWS]

Who, though? J & H Marshall, McMillan, Vincent have all been tried in that area and haven't done brilliantly.

Better than Oram I'm sure. Marshall has only batted at 6 twice but he scored 76 and 43... Oram has had an extended run there and has never fired. His bowling is good enough to keep him in the equation, but I'd bat him at 8 - below McCullum. Vettori can bat 9 with Bond and either Gillespie or Patel to round off the bowling attack.

 

[NZTailender]

Better than Oram I'm sure. Marshall has only batted at 6 twice but he scored 76 and 43... Oram has had an extended run there and has never fired. His bowling is good enough to keep him in the equation, but I'd bat him at 8 - below McCullum. Vettori can bat 9 with Bond and either Gillespie or Patel to round off the bowling attack.

We're missing a bowler, then.

Bearing in mind that Styris can't be relied on in ODI's whereas Oram can to send down 10.

Re Marshall at 6...I thought his record was worse there. But 2 games are hardly enough to judge. If he's given a shot there in the future and is successful, then good on him. But I don't see him repeating that 76 or 43 often.

 

[Fiery]

Better than Oram I'm sure. Marshall has only batted at 6 twice but he scored 76 and 43... Oram has had an extended run there and has never fired. His bowling is good enough to keep him in the equation, but I'd bat him at 8 - below McCullum. Vettori can bat 9 with Bond and either Gillespie or Patel to round off the bowling attack.

ODI average is unflattering, granted but you obviously haven't seen enough of Oram batting to have an opinion like that. He averages over 40 in tests and has played some good ODI knocks and is capable of hitting it out of the park. Better option down there than any of the guys you mentioned (and two of them don't bowl at alland the other only bowls in times of desperation)

 

[Macka]

The demise of players like Te Ahu Davis point out a problem within NZ cricket that administration should place more emphasis on. We have a huge population base of naturally talented Maori and Polynesians sportsmen who have not been encouraged to take up cricket. If we could tap into that market the way that rugby and league has then we could be world-beaters. I would love to see a future where we have 2 or 3 big-hitting Maori, Samoan, Tongan or Fijian boys coming in wearing a Black Cap with 15-20 overs to go and smacking the ball to all places. We already know they are not too interested in test cricket but hopefully 20/20 will encourage more of them to take up the game and sports administrators and sports gear retailers will wake up to the fact.

Was it not Martin Crowe who said "Maori are too lazy to play cricket"? Unfortunately it does ring true. Might get a bit for that comment, but those who are in a low socio-economic group don't tend to play the game. Maori and Pacific Islanders make up a high number of that group.

Heard on the radio the other day that those who cycle are much, much more likely to be descended from upper-class Englishmen.

 

[NZTailender]

Was it not Martin Crowe who said "Maori are too lazy to play cricket"?

Paddles, I thought it was.

 

[Prince EWS]

ODI average is unflattering, granted but you obviously haven't seen enough of Oram batting to have an opinion like that. He averages over 40 in tests and has played some good ODI knocks and is capable of hitting it out of the park. Better option down there than any of the guys you mentioned (and two of them don't bowl at alland the other only bowls in times of desperation)

I've seen him play some very good test knocks, but he clearly isn't cut out for the one day game. His ODD record is ordinary and his ODI record is awful - and it's not like he hasn't been given lots of chances, either.

 

[Prince EWS]

We're missing a bowler, then.

Bearing in mind that Styris can't be relied on in ODI's whereas Oram can to send down 10.

Re Marshall at 6...I thought his record was worse there. But 2 games are hardly enough to judge. If he's given a shot there in the future and is successful, then good on him. But I don't see him repeating that 76 or 43 often.

Styris and Astle are more than capable of getting through 10 overs between them.

 

[Perm]

Paddles, I thought it was.

Definately Martin Crowe, although I beleive he said that Maori's didn't have the patience.

 

[Smudge]

It was Crowe. I don't particularly agree with him, but some people try to bring up Tuffey as a counterpoint to Crowe's argument. The thing is, Tuffey was adopted out as a very young child into a Pakeha family...

 

[corza_nz]

i think nz cricket does have a good future if they use the right players...
for the world cup id say the best side would be
1 astle
2 fleming
3 taylor
4 fulton
5 styris
6 mccullum
7 oram
8 vettori
9 mills
10 bond
11 gillespie
with h marshall, patel, franklin, mcmillan, vincent in the squad.
i think there is good enough batsmen there in the top 5 to consistently score runs when we get out of this rut and then theres a couple of big hitters to come in with oram and mccullum (much better down the order).
then after the world cup theyd have 2 look at brining and developing ryder and other youngsters.
thats my piece.

 

[NZTailender]

Definately Martin Crowe, although I beleive he said that Maori's didn't have the patience.

Yeah, but you don't want them as your combined 5th bowling option. Mainly as the 6th/7th, as we've seen from Astle and McMillan so far in the CB series.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah, but you don't want them as your combined 5th bowling option. Mainly as the 6th/7th, as we've seen from Astle and McMillan so far in the CB series.

I presume you quoted the wrong post there, but anyway.. I don't see why Styris and Astle couldn't combine to be a 5th bowling option. You probably wouldn't want to have just one of them and rely on it - but combined I think they are more than good enough to do so. Styris is really an under-rated one day bowler.

Idealy it obviously isn't best to have these two as your fifth bowler, but I think it makes more sense than having a #6 who averages under 20 after about 85 innings...

 

[Matt52]

I don't see why Styris and Astle couldn't combine to be a 5th bowling option. You probably wouldn't want to have just one of them and rely on it - but combined I think they are more than good enough to do so. Styris is really an under-rated one day bowler.

Idealy it obviously isn't best to have these two as your fifth bowler, but I think it makes more sense than having a #6 who averages under 20 after about 85 innings...

Thats another reason why I think Jesse Ryder should be in the side. He a talented opening bat, but he regularly bowls 10 overs for Wellington, even when Wellington have franklin, Gillespie, and Patel back. So with, Ryder, Styris and Astle, Those three guys could surely make up the 5th bowler and then Oram can drop down to seven.

Ryder (5th bowler)
Astle (5th)
Taylor
Fleming
Vincent
Styris (5th)
Oram (4th)
McCullum
Vettori (3rd)
Bond
Gillespie.

 

[Richard]

What does that have to do with my point though? They clearly have better players to bat at 6 than Jacob Oram. Your reply smacks of the admission of defeat.

The point was he's likely to get more chances high-ish in the order and therefore have more opportunities to change that #6 average.

 

[Richard]

I would never have made any association between those two either

Wouldn't you?

Were they not just about the only 2 openers of the last 15 years or so who succeeded against good new-ball bowling by playing shots?