Yuvraj Or Chopra

[Deja moo]

Chopra is one of those openers who actually scores runs, which is why he had a First-Class average of over 50 for a long time. He also had a healthy List-A batting average, which was aslo over 40. He doesn't hit too many shots, but if the team demands he does, he'll do it. He runs hard between wickets, something we didn't see much of in the Indian team in the recent past. When his partner is in form, he'll give im the strike, which is good. He's a player who will bat through the innings.

Good point there. The objection many people have against Chopra is that he is a stodgy gritty opener who will last 150 balls , get a 40 and get dismissed. They fail to realise that this is the sort of innings the team wants, and that is why he plays so. He can play the big shots, but he chooses not to, and might do so if the situation demanded it .

 

[tooextracool]

Hick got his chances at the international level....Sriram hasnt.

If any player averages 10 more than what the next best players in the domestic scene average, the least one can do is to atleast give him a fair run in the national side.

oh yes no one is denying that sriram shouldnt get his chances at the international level, the point is that it would be inane to consider him better than someone else based solely on his first class average.

 

[SJS]

Good point there. The objection many people have against Chopra is that he is a stodgy gritty opener who will last 150 balls , get a 40 and get dismissed. They fail to realise that this is the sort of innings the team wants, and that is why he plays so. He can play the big shots, but he chooses not to, and might do so if the situation demanded it .

PLUS, India's good scores are built around good starts from openers and not necessarily big hundreds from them. Anyone can check that. Chopra's solidity has ensured more good starts than we had seen for a very long time allowing the stroke players of the middle order to offer their best.

Unfortunately, one day cricket breeds bad habits in the cricket fan as often , if not more so, as it does in the batsmen themselves. A affinity to individual statistics as a measure rather than an understanding of each act in the overall unfolding of the plot test matches is one such.

 

[SJS]

Hick got his chances at the international level....Sriram hasnt.

If any player averages 10 more than what the next best players in the domestic scene average, the least one can do is to atleast give him a fair run in the national side.

Well DM, its not exactly correct that he hasnt had any chances. Like everyone else (including Yuvraj) he has first been tried in ODI,s. Six in all. All in 2000. All at home.

One innings as opener, three at number 3 and one at number five. A grand total of 21 runs at 5.54 each doesnt inspire confidence.

Of these four matches were against Zimbabwe (not the toughest opponent in the world and at home) , all at a stretch in Dec 2000. He got to bat 3 times scoring 0, 1no, and 2.

I think he will get more chances but to keep harping on his FC average and claim he has been treated unfairly is not such an unmitigated statement of fact.

 

[Deja moo]

Yes...but his test career still reads 0 matches 0 innings 0 runs ...

Look at how Marvan Atapattus career started.

Tendulkar himself averaged just 13 in his first 6 ODIs ....it took him 72 games just to score his first ODI century...Imagine the loss of such a talent if he had been dropped due to lack of results?

 

[SJS]

I agree. But its not right to say he hasnt been given chances. There are many cases in history where people have had fewer chances. Its possible that some of them may have been all time greats with just that ONE EXTRA chance but that argument will always be valid for anyone who has not performed. Who knows... ?? If only....?? etc etc

There has been talk here about someone like Devang Gandhi (alongwith some not so complementary adjectives) being given more chances. Well here are his stats.

ODI's : 3. (against Sriram's 6), Avg 16.33 (5.5) Highest 33 (12)

Tests : 4, Avg. 34. Fifties 2, Tests against Australia and NZealand. Last 3 tests against New Zealand scores, 0 and 75, 88 and 31 not out, and 6. Average for the series 50.0. Never played since then !!

Its easy to sit here and criticise or select teams based on one performance (normally the latest) or first class cricket where no international cricketer of India bothers to participate making the standard abysmal.

Incidentaly, Gautam Gambhir (another opener) has one fifty in his 5 ODI's (Avg 23) and 2 50's in his 7 tests (avg 28). Never played for 5 years.

I am not saying they are better or worse than Sriram. I am not well placed to discuss that objectively but its unfair to just throw first class statistics from the depleted domestic circuit in isolation and use them as the SOLE criteria for deciding whether justice is being done.

Ther is always some level of personal preference in any selection and differences of opinion but by and large, with some minor exceptions, the selectors in India have been doing a decent job.

Whats lacking is a strategy to build a solid bench strength and it is here that the criticism is valid. It is a question of whether Srirams, Venugopals, Rayudus and others like them deserve to occupy the benches any less than the Mongia's and Badani's.

However, to argue that they are ready to replace those like Laxman, Ganguly, Sehwag or even Kaif and Yuvraj is to demonstrate one's ignorance of the ground realities.

Yes a Tendulkar can emerge from an unknown face but this is not an argument that is ever used to bring unknown faces to replace proven talent. This is being childish.

 

[Arjun]

The only players in this Indian team who are really valuable are Sachin, Laxman, Dravid and Kumble. The others may come and go, but the team is safe as long as these four still stay. If any of the others are relpaced by the fringe players, it will make little difference, since the 'senior' players are only slightly better, or even worse, than their counterparts who don't get a match for years.

 

[Arjun]

Sriram's match temperament cannot be questioned. He plays for a big innings and takes his time, but he gets the job done. He's also an improved limited-overs batsman now. If you have seen him in action in Africa, he got his runs by doing the simple things right- staying at the crease, taking quick singles, rotating the strike, pinching extra runs between wickets and hitting boundaries that came. He played like a batsman who would lead an international team. Much as many choose to remember the heroics of Jadhav, Gambhir and Mighty Slash Dhoni, he was the unsung hero for the team. Any team would want to have such a player.

 

[SJS]

The only players in this Indian team who are really valuable are Sachin, Laxman, Dravid and Kumble. The others may come and go, but the team is safe as long as these four still stay. If any of the others are relpaced by the fringe players, it will make little difference, since the 'senior' players are only slightly better, or even worse, than their counterparts who don't get a match for years.

I think there is merit in that.

But that leaves the openers slot and the number six, keeper and bowlers. Since we are talking batsmen, that leaves openers and number six.

I think openers can be replaced but with an opener. Someone who has opened a couple of times , or who would like to open since thats the only slot going is not the way to do it.

Both Chopra and Sehwag may and might be replaced but we need to get someone in who looks like being a decent replacement. If Sriram wants to open, he has to go back to that slot and play there for a couple of years. Same for Yuvraj.

The number six spot is presently with Yuvraj. Yes he can be replaced if he fails to perform and there are many waiting to occupy that position. Kaif and Mongia are ahead in the queue but others like Sriram, Venugopal etc may have to fight for the same spot.

Yuvraj could also strengthen his case if he was to bowl more regularly and improve his bowling enough to be considered in the all rounder slot for tests. I personally feel that is a very good place and we desperately need someone to fill it. Yuvraj needs to work at it. I am sure he has the talent to improve but it is not the role of a ODI fifth or sixth bowler. It has to be better than that.

 

[Arjun]

Yuvraj could also strengthen his case if he was to bowl more regularly and improve his bowling enough to be considered in the all rounder slot for tests. I personally feel that is a very good place and we desperately need someone to fill it. Yuvraj needs to work at it. I am sure he has the talent to improve but it is not the role of a ODI fifth or sixth bowler. It has to be better than that.

The reverse (bowler improving his batting) is easier, given the trend of laying flat pitches in most cricket grounds. This will make players like Irfan Pathan and Harbhajan more useful in the team. As for Yuvraj's bowling, it is awful and on those lucky days, he doesn't go for too many. What the team needs is not more bit bowling options, but a sound regular bowling option as backup. Only one or two batsmen should be doing that. At present, Sehwag is the best choice, since he is younger and has had more success with the ball.

Venugopal Rao is a rank outsider and has shot to fame only because of that double century against England A. He should be more consistent.

 

[SJS]

..... Sehwag is the best choice, since he is younger and has had more success with the ball.

I am not talking about who is a better bowler between Sehwag and Yuvraj. I was merely talking of how Yuvraj could strengthen his place in the side. He could keep wickets for example

Now you will tell me Dravid can do that better...right ??

 

[Arjun]

I am not talking about who is a better bowler between Sehwag and Yuvraj. I was merely talking of how Yuvraj could strengthen his place in the side. He could keep wickets for example

If Yuvraj should think of that as an option to stay in the team, he has to bowl like a regular, good enough to support the strike bowlers. He should be good enough for 10 overs or more. But first, he has to work on his main skill- batting. As a batsman, he can be quite effective in the middle order, by attacking the bowling and scoring more than 50 quick runs. For that, he has to improve his shot selection and footwork, especially agaisnt the spinners. The appointment of Sunil Gavaskar as a batting consultant is a good thing, though Navjot Singh Sidhu, the supreme destroyer of spinners, would be the best man Yuvraj could talk to, for help.

 

[Richard]

Or could it just be that they don't think he's as good as the other's that have been tried.

Err, well fairly obviously it is that, or they'd have given him a chance.
The question is, why do they not think he's as good as the others, when he's so far proved superior to them.

An Indian FC average is far higher than most others - there must be a reason for that (ie flat pitches, poor bowling?)

Yes, of course it is - so, whereas for an Australian (for instance) it would be that someone averaging 50 would be a better bet than someone averaging 43, for an Indian it's someone averaging 60 would be a better bet than someone averaging 50.

 

[Richard]

oh yes no one is denying that sriram shouldnt get his chances at the international level, the point is that it would be inane to consider him better than someone else based solely on his first class average.

Why?
If a First-Class average is the only valid comparison (and it is) then that is what must be used.

 

[Richard]

Well DM, its not exactly correct that he hasnt had any chances. Like everyone else (including Yuvraj) he has first been tried in ODI,s. Six in all. All in 2000. All at home.

One innings as opener, three at number 3 and one at number five. A grand total of 21 runs at 5.54 each doesnt inspire confidence.

Of these four matches were against Zimbabwe (not the toughest opponent in the world and at home) , all at a stretch in Dec 2000. He got to bat 3 times scoring 0, 1no, and 2.

I think he will get more chances but to keep harping on his FC average and claim he has been treated unfairly is not such an unmitigated statement of fact.

It is even more unfair to judge a batsman for his Test qualities on the fact that he has failed in ODIs.
Just because you've failed in ODIs doesn't mean a thing as to whether or not you're Test-class. First-Class-averages are far more important.

 

[Richard]

And that's why Stuart Williams is superior to Ramnaresh Sarwan and more than 3/4 of all West Indian batsmen and Graeme Hick is superior to Brian Lara?

No, because both have failed at the Test-level.
Sriram hasn't played at the Test-level, so the only comparison viable is First-Class averages. Especially considering Chopra's failed at the Test-level, too.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

No, because both have failed at the Test-level.
Sriram hasn't played at the Test-level, so the only comparison viable is First-Class averages. Especially considering Chopra's failed at the Test-level, too.

Then there's no way you can say Sriram is a superior batsman at Test level! I don't care how many runs you score in domestic cricket, if you fail to duplicate it at Test level then you're inferior to the mild domestic batsman with the Test hundreds. Sriram may well be a superior batsman, but who are you to state that he is before he's played a single Test?

Ramnaresh Sarwan FC avge 38, Test avge 40.97.
Stuart Williams FC avgr 40.24, Test avge 24.14.

Go on and guess who I'd prefer to see at the crease for the West Indies.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Hick got his chances at the international level....Sriram hasnt.

If any player averages 10 more than what the next best players in the domestic scene average, the least one can do is to atleast give him a fair run in the national side.

Please note the context before replying to my posts. I was rebutting Richard's statement that Sriram is a superior player, suggesting that Sriram will automatically prosper better at Test level than Chopra has.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The only players in this Indian team who are really valuable are Sachin, Laxman, Dravid and Kumble. The others may come and go, but the team is safe as long as these four still stay. If any of the others are relpaced by the fringe players, it will make little difference, since the 'senior' players are only slightly better, or even worse, than their counterparts who don't get a match for years.

I'd think that Pathan is a class above most if not all other Indian pace prospects of the moment.

 

[tooextracool]

Why?
If a First-Class average is the only valid comparison (and it is) then that is what must be used.

err how about watching him bat as a comparison??
as i said before, just because hick averaged more than everyone else in domestic cricket, it doesnt make him better.