South Africa - captaincy blunder?

[Prince EWS]

What do you mean chances?

He didnt need more chances. He had already established himself in the team. Especially the ODI team.

 

[tooextracool]

What do you mean chances?

He didnt need more chances. He had already established himself in the team. Especially the ODI team.

how had he established himself in the ODI side? all he had was one good series against england(which was only with the ball) and he quickly followed that with poor performances in pakistan.

 

[Prince EWS]

He also performed quite well in England with the bat.

And one bad series can be forgiven, just like one good series can be wiped aside.

He consistantly performed well whenever required.

 

[Richard]

ntini and gibbs are all overrated.

Ntini has been poor recently, Gibbs has been poor in ODIs since WC2003 and should have been dropped by now.
Even if only to give him a kick up the backside.

 

[tooextracool]

He also performed quite well in England with the bat..

that was pretty much all he did though

And one bad series can be forgiven, just like one good series can be wiped aside.

He consistantly performed well whenever required.

how was he consistent? hes struggled in his only game against a quality side in the world cup, and before that had a poor series against pakistan.
hall has always shown potential, which is why i believe he should have been given more chances, but the fact is that hall only ever had 1 good series to show for himself, and its not like he came out of that with flying colours either.

 

[tooextracool]

Ntini has been poor recently.

no ntini has always been poor away from home, and against the quality sides. even when he was apparently in the form of his life, he was absolutely pathetic in pakistan.....he returned with good figures against the WI at home and then struggled against both NZ and SL after that.

 

[Richard]

Makhaya Ntini, match-by-match
As you can see, he's been very poor recently (1 good game in his last 13, plus 1 where he bowled OK in a mere 4 overs).
But in the period up to February 2004 as you can see he did much better.
From February 2004 onward as you can see, he's had a shocker.
Test-match thinking should not cloud the judgement; in the Test game he's never been an especially brilliant bowler.

 

[tooextracool]

Makhaya Ntini, match-by-match
As you can see, he's been very poor recently (1 good game in his last 13, plus 1 where he bowled OK in a mere 4 overs).
But in the period up to February 2004 as you can see he did much better.
From February 2004 onward as you can see, he's had a shocker.
Test-match thinking should not cloud the judgement; in the Test game he's never been an especially brilliant bowler.

and what is the point of all this?yes i know he bowled brilliantly at home against the WI etc but my point is that he has almost always struggled away from home. he failed in pakistan at at time in which he was supposedly at the best of his form and has failed in every other away series before and after that. in fact the only time he actually did well in an away series was in england, and even then he came out with an average of 35.

 

[Richard]

His economy-rate was disappointing (4.65-an-over) but I'd hardly call the average of 15.00 poor (in Pakistan).
And his NatWest Series (in England) wasn't exactly poor, either - far from averaging 35, he actually averaged 19.50. He did, however, do much better against the substandard Zimbabweans than England.
Nor did he do badly in the Australian VB Series of 2001\02 (ER 4.15, av 24.14).
Indeed, have you even read the links? Because that reply seems to me to be suggesting you're actually talking about Test-matches. And I've never once mentioned Test-matches, except to say he's never been that good in them.

 

[tooextracool]

Indeed, have you even read the links? Because that reply seems to me to be suggesting you're actually talking about Test-matches. And I've never once mentioned Test-matches, except to say he's never been that good in them.

yes i was referring to his test career.....i thought that this thread was about graeme smiths captaincy in both forms of the game.....

 

[Richard]

So when you wrote:

ntini and gibbs are all overrated

You in fact meant Gibbs is overrated in the ODI arena and Ntini in the Test one.

 

[marc71178]

His economy-rate was disappointing (4.65-an-over)

No, it was not.

 

[Richard]

For a bowler whose economy-rate was below 4.1 before that, it was disappointing.
In any case, it mightn't have been disappointing for you, but personally I know he's capable of better, so it was disappointing for me, and that's not for you to decide.

 

[marc71178]

It's about the nature of the game, not just a mere number...

 

[Richard]

Err, yes, and in all games Ntini didn't bowl accurately as I would have expected of him.
Given the accuracy he'd been producing in recent games, I was disappointed.

 

[marc71178]

So ignore the fact that Pakistan scored their runs far in excess of 4.65 (and that Ntini picked up 12 wickets in the series when no-one else took more than 8)

Because that 4.65 is higher than a stupidly harsh arbitrary number that pays no attention to the nature of the modern ODI, his bowling was disappointing.

 

[Richard]

The modern ODI in which good bowlers are still perfectly capable of gaining career economy-rates of 3.8-3.9-an-over?
Yes, in this context, it's disappointing, given that Pakistan always managed to get away in the last 20-15 overs after slow starts in the first couple of games.

 

[tooextracool]

So when you wrote:

You in fact meant Gibbs is overrated in the ODI arena and Ntini in the Test one.

no i was looking at both of them at the test arena.....

 

[marc71178]

The modern ODI in which good bowlers are still perfectly capable of gaining career economy-rates of 3.8-3.9-an-over?

3 bowlers have those figures - the rest do not.

Incidentally, these 3 have played a lot of cricket (hence the more recent bat-dominated times do not feature so highly in their figures)

Ntini takes 12 wickets (1 every 3 overs or so) and goes at 4.65 - that is not disappointing when the Pakistan team were as a whole scoring quite a bit in excess of 4.65.

That is called taking it in context, not looking at one number and deciding if it were good or bad.

 

[Richard]

Whether or not the more recent bat-dominated games feature more prominently in their figures, they still haven't changed much in the last 3 or 4 years (the period where it's really set-in).
In almost all the games Ntini bowled good early spells then ruined it all later on. Not entirely his fault - if he'd bowled straight through IMO it'd have been better.
Nonetheless, you can't get around the fact that it was a disappointment to me that he was as expensive as he was, because I know he's capable of much better. All you can do is say I've no grounds on which to say.