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Best New Zealand line-up?

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
And what has that to do with anything?
Where did I say such a thing?
I asked if you rated that load of players better than all but 3 current players and you said yes.

Therefore you think that Vic Marks (one of the players in my list) is better than Shane Warne (not one of the 3)


Richard said:
Err, yes, that's what I was saying - it's no coincidence.
But still the game hasn't changed much since about 1992 and the figures that were acceptible then (ie under 4-an-over very good, over 4.5 far too expensive) are still applicable now.
No the game has changed one hell of a lot.

It is now very very much aimed towards run scoring with artificial rules - hence run rates have gone up so much.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
And that applies to almost every bowler around. Almost all will have economy-rates beyond 4.5 in very batsman-friendly conditions.

So therefore under your ridiculous threshold almost all bowlers are rubbish. 8-)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
I asked if you rated that load of players better than all but 3 current players and you said yes.

Therefore you think that Vic Marks (one of the players in my list) is better than Shane Warne (not one of the 3)
And I said I didn't.
I said I think Dale is better, because he played in the modern ODI era.
The rest didn't.
No the game has changed one hell of a lot.

It is now very very much aimed towards run scoring with artificial rules - hence run rates have gone up so much.
So what "artificial" rules are in place, then?
Field-restrictions, and that's it.
All the rest of it has not changed, it's just strategic evolution.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
So therefore under your ridiculous threshold almost all bowlers are rubbish. 8-)
There are a lot of very poor bowlers are around ATM, yes. That's why scoring-rates are so high.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Richard said:
And I said I didn't.
I said I think Dale is better, because he played in the modern ODI era.
The rest didn't.
So why say what you did in answer to my question then?

I asked if you thought that that list of players were better than all but 3 current bowlers, and you said "most of them yes, rather obviously"



Richard said:
So what "artificial" rules are in place, then?
Field-restrictions, and that's it.
All the rest of it has not changed, it's just strategic evolution.
Smaller grounds for a start, flatter wickets making runs easier to come by.

And the fielding restrictions have evolved as well.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
So why say what you did in answer to my question then?

I asked if you thought that that list of players were better than all but 3 current bowlers, and you said "most of them yes, rather obviously"
Most of them, rather obviously, have better economy-rates because they played in an era where ODIs were different to how they are now.
Is what I meant.
And the fact that I said Dale didn't play in the era all the rest of them did should have registered something.
Smaller grounds for a start, flatter wickets making runs easier to come by.

And the fielding restrictions have evolved as well.
Well, not smaller grounds, but yes, smaller boundaries.
Not exactly sure when the field-restriction regulations have become what they are, always said that, but certainly the things as they are now have been what they are since 1996 at the latest.
It is possible that the 15-overs and 16-50 over thing came at a different time. Either way, they've both been around for a long time now.
Flat wickets don't make good bowling into poor bowling, though.
And smaller boundaries equally don't make good bowling likely to be more expensive because there will be less boundaries attempted.
They just make poor bowling more likely to be very expensive instead of expensive. Hence higher totals.
They certainly won't make bad batsmen look like good ones.
But the epidemic of boundaries that are too short for credible cricket is something which needs to be culled, soon, if one-day cricket is to remain recognisable as cricket.
Otherwise, it saddens me to say, you might as well replace it with 20-over slogs.
What I'm hoping is that the 20-over slogs, where short boundaries are entirely suitable, will sate the appetites for stupidly fast scoring-rates and might make ODIs be considered less so, and have proper-sized boundaries with regularity again.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
They also make batting a lot easier, regardless of accuracy, because the batsman has much more confidence in what is going to happen to the ball.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
But they still aren't going to make batsmen whose shot-selection isn't up-to-scratch into one who's going to score regularly.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Right, so when it suits you flat wickets aren't included in stats, but when it shows you to be wrong then they're fine and not easy to score on?
 

thierry henry

International Coach
I would just like to point out that Vettori is really embarrassingly bad. I know it's been said, but it just saddens me to see people keep picking him. He really is that bad.
 

anzac

International Debutant
thierry henry said:
I would just like to point out that Vettori is really embarrassingly bad. I know it's been said, but it just saddens me to see people keep picking him. He really is that bad.
with no obvious replacement at Test level, and after his performance in the recent ODIs my guess is that we'll be seeing him selected for a while yet - even longer if he can convert his recent ODI form to the longer game.........
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
marc71178 said:
Right, so when it suits you flat wickets aren't included in stats, but when it shows you to be wrong then they're fine and not easy to score on?
When have I said "it was a flat wicket so it shouldn't be included"?
I've said that most of Richardson's runs have come on wickets offering no seam or turn, but I've never made any averages.
I have used some comparisons for bowlers, showing how certain bowlers need certain things in the pitch but again, there's no exclusion, it's just categorisation.
 

anzac

International Debutant
Hit4Six said:
i cant remember anything bad vettori has done hes always appeared quite solid?
however he's not been taking too many wickets at Test level since making his return from injury which is some time ago now..............
 

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