"Born before Tests" draft

[a massive zebra]

FWIW Ranji averaged 56 in FC, it wasn't just Fry benefiting from the Hove pitch.

Just because a side has two exceptional batsmen, it doesn't necessarily mean their pitches are featherbeads. At the beginning of the 20th century Sussex didn't just play at Hove. If their pitches were so easy for batting, I wonder why all their other batsmen struggled to maintain an average of 30, and none achieved a seasonal average of over 40.

In the 1899 county championship Ranji scored 2,285 runs at 76.16 with 7 centuries and Fry 1,579 at 42.67 with 3 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was George Brann with 1,224 at 32.21 with 2 centuries.

In the 1900 county championship Ranji scored 2,563 runs at 85.43 with 9 centuries and Fry 1,830 at 63.10 with 9 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Ernest Killick with 1,177 at 34.61 with 2 centuries.

In the 1901 county championship Ranji scored 2,067 runs at 76.55 with 7 centuries and Fry 2,382 at 74.43 with 9 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Ernest Killick with 1,186 at 37.06 with 2 centuries.

In the 1902 county championship Ranji scored 866 runs at 66.61 with 3 centuries and Fry 1,072 at 41.23 with 3 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Joe Vine with 1,083 at 30.08 with no centuries.

In the 1903 county championship Ranji scored 1,394 runs at 58.08 with 4 centuries and Fry 2,413 at 80.43 with 8 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Ernest Killick with 1,026 at 33.09 with no centuries.

In the 1904 county championship Ranji scored 1,330 runs at 73.88 with 4 centuries and Fry 2,376 at 79.20 with 9 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Joe Vine with 1,189 at 36.03 with 4 centuries.

Also, Fry didn't just play for Sussex. In 1909 he moved to Hampshire and played for them for the remainder of his career. Despite not joining Hampshire until age 36 and playing for them until he was almost 50, he still has the best career average in the county’s history. If Fry benefited from the "easy" Hove pitch, why was he able to achieve even better returns as a relatively old man after moving to Hampshire?

Fry headed the English first class batting averages (qualification minimum 20 innings) for six English seasons (1901, 1903, 1905, 1907, 1911 and 1912). Against Yorkshire, the strongest county bowling attack of Fry's time, he averaged a remarkable 63.60 over the course of his career, including back to back scores of 177 and 229 in 1904.

 

[a massive zebra]

I just picked the better test player. Maybe CB Fry played more post War (he retired in 1921) when FC teams were generally much weaker because of casualties in the War. I know this explains Freeman's ridiculous FC record. MacLaren started earlier and played more too.


I'm not AMZ though so I'm just guessing

No, C.B. Fry's first class career was almost exclusively pre WWI. he didn't play at all in 1919 and although he did play a few matches in the early 1920s, he was almost 50 and did not enhance his reputation. He was actually offered the captaincy of England for the 1921 Ashes tour, but turned it down on the grounds of poor form.

 

[a massive zebra]

I think Hove was a fairly flat pitch in this era? From 1900-1909, looking at some of the more successful counties, Yorkshire, Lancashire and Surrey drew about 37% of their championship games; Sussex drew more than half of theirs.

But a high proportion of draws is often a byproduct of a poor bowling attack, because weaker bowlers are less able to force victories from favourable positions. At that time, all three of those sides had some class bowlers. Yorkshire had a great bowling attack with the likes of Wilfred Rhodes, George Hirst and Schofield Haigh. Lancashire had Arthur Mold and Johnny Briggs at the beginning of the decade followed by Walter Brearley at the end, while Surrey began the century with Tom Richardson and Bill Lockwood who passed on the torch to the likes of Walter Lees at the end. Sussex didn't really have any bowlers of that class.

 

[a massive zebra]

Yes but up to the late 18th century test matches weren't fully representative, selection was an entirely different process and FC cricket was still highly regarded. Wasn't the Gentleman v Players still the hottest contest of the season? Even Australia only became a consistently good test team towards the end of the century* and SA were hopeless. So things are a bit murky. The line between FC and test is blurry pre Golden Age.

You mean't "late 19th century". In the late 19th century, Australia were the only overseas team to play Tests in England (South Africa's first Test in England was in 1907). When Australia toured, England vs Australia matches were definitely the highlight of the season. But as Australia only toured every two to three years, Gentleman v Players matches were often the hottest contest of the season by virtue of there being no competitive overseas sides touring.

 

[AndrewB]

But a high proportion of draws is often a byproduct of a poor bowling attack, because weaker bowlers are less able to force victories from favourable positions. At that time, all three of those sides had some class bowlers. Yorkshire had a great bowling attack with the likes of Wilfred Rhodes, George Hirst and Schofield Haigh. Lancashire had Arthur Mold and Johnny Briggs at the beginning of the decade followed by Walter Brearley at the end, while Surrey began the century with Tom Richardson and Bill Lockwood who passed on the torch to the likes of Walter Lees at the end. Sussex didn't really have any bowlers of that class.

Well, as long as you remember that when it comes to voting.

 

[AndrewB]

Since Michaelf7777777 has missed the last 3 picks, I'm going to abuse my authority as the instigator of this draft and pick Allan Rae

 

[kingkallis]

JJ Ferris

 

[kingkallis]

CricZo XI

1. Vijay Merchant /
2. Archie Jackson /
3.
4.
5.
6.
7. Monty Noble o /
8. Imran Khan o / (c)
9. George Giffen o /
10. J.J. Ferris o
11. Subhash Gupte o

 

[Teuton]

fuller > me (2) > fuller

michael has 4 catch ups, scc has 1

 

[ataraxia]

Just because a side has two exceptional batsmen, it doesn't necessarily mean their pitches are featherbeads. At the beginning of the 20th century Sussex didn't just play at Hove. If their pitches were so easy for batting, I wonder why all their other batsmen struggled to maintain an average of 30, and none achieved a seasonal average of over 40.

In the 1899 county championship Ranji scored 2,285 runs at 76.16 with 7 centuries and Fry 1,579 at 42.67 with 3 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was George Brann with 1,224 at 32.21 with 2 centuries.

In the 1900 county championship Ranji scored 2,563 runs at 85.43 with 9 centuries and Fry 1,830 at 63.10 with 9 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Ernest Killick with 1,177 at 34.61 with 2 centuries.

In the 1901 county championship Ranji scored 2,067 runs at 76.55 with 7 centuries and Fry 2,382 at 74.43 with 9 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Ernest Killick with 1,186 at 37.06 with 2 centuries.

In the 1902 county championship Ranji scored 866 runs at 66.61 with 3 centuries and Fry 1,072 at 41.23 with 3 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Joe Vine with 1,083 at 30.08 with no centuries.

In the 1903 county championship Ranji scored 1,394 runs at 58.08 with 4 centuries and Fry 2,413 at 80.43 with 8 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Ernest Killick with 1,026 at 33.09 with no centuries.

In the 1904 county championship Ranji scored 1,330 runs at 73.88 with 4 centuries and Fry 2,376 at 79.20 with 9 centuries. The next best Sussex batsman was Joe Vine with 1,189 at 36.03 with 4 centuries.

Also, Fry didn't just play for Sussex. In 1909 he moved to Hampshire and played for them for the remainder of his career. Despite not joining Hampshire until age 36 and playing for them until he was almost 50, he still has the best career average in the county’s history. If Fry benefited from the "easy" Hove pitch, why was he able to achieve even better returns as a relatively old man after moving to Hampshire?

Fry headed the English first class batting averages (qualification minimum 20 innings) for six English seasons (1901, 1903, 1905, 1907, 1911 and 1912). Against Yorkshire, the strongest county bowling attack of Fry's time, he averaged a remarkable 63.60 over the course of his career, including back to back scores of 177 and 229 in 1904.

Thanks; I really like overrating Ranji and Fry so there's more for me to feast on.

 

[ataraxia]

I don't disagree that Grace and Ranji were from different eras, but to claim Grace wasn't what he used to be "after 1895" is a very poor choice of year. Between 1895 and 1898, Grace went through a late renaissance and was in the best form he had been for around a decade. Just take a look at his stats in these seasons as opposed to the seasons directly preceding 1895:

Grace made 30 first-class appearances in 1890, scoring 1,476 runs, with a highest score of 109 not out, at an average of 28.38 with 1 century and 9 half-centuries.
Grace made 24 first-class appearances in 1891, scoring 771 runs, with a highest score of 72 not out, at an average of 19.76 with 0 centuries and 5 half-centuries.
Grace made 21 first-class appearances in 1892, scoring 1,055 runs, with a highest score of 99, at an average of 31.02 with 0 centuries and 8 half-centuries.
Grace made 28 first-class appearances in 1893, scoring 1,609 runs, with a highest score of 128, at an average of 35.75 with 1 century and 11 half-centuries.
Grace made 27 first-class appearances in 1894, scoring 1,293 runs, with a highest score of 196, at an average of 29.38 with 3 centuries and 5 half-centuries.
Grace made 29 first-class appearances in 1895, scoring 2,346 runs, with a highest score of 288, at an average of 51.00 with 9 centuries and 5 half-centuries.
Grace made 30 first-class appearances in 1896, scoring 2,135 runs, with a highest score of 301, at an average of 42.70 with 4 centuries and 11 half-centuries.
Grace made 25 first-class appearances in 1897, scoring 1,532 runs, with a highest score of 131, at an average of 39.28 with 4 centuries and 7 half-centuries.
Grace made 26 first-class appearances in 1898, scoring 1,513 runs, with a highest score of 168, at an average of 42.02 with 3 centuries and 8 half-centuries.

A more accurate statement would have been "after 1898 Grace wasn't what he used to be".

Didn't realise that he did quite that good 1896 to 1898. Those latter figures are average for great batsmen of that era - but hey, they're still pretty good.

 

[Teuton]

Fuller timed out.

I will pick Imtiaz Ahmed and Wasim Raja

Fuller has a double pick now

 

[Teuton]

Team so far

Marvan Atapattu
~
Zaheer Abbas
Vijay Hazare
~
Wasim Raja
Imtiaz Ahmed
Chaminda Vaas
Clarrie Grimmett
~
Sydney Barnes

 

[kingkallis]

Fuller timed out.

I will pick Imtiaz Ahmed and Wasim Raja

Fuller has a double pick now

You just killed my middle order in single turn.

 

[trundler]

What's the order now? Someone timed out

 

[kingkallis]

Fuller timed out.

I'll take Johnny Tyldesley

CricZo XI

1. Vijay Merchant /
2. Archie Jackson /
3. Johnny Tyldesley /
4.
5.
6.
7. Monty Noble o /
8. Imran Khan o / (c)
9. George Giffen o /
10. J.J. Ferris o
11. Subhash Gupte o

 

[trundler]

It's just unfair to have Imran, Noble and Giffen in the same team.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

This is going to be pretty mediocre side but I will have Eddo Brandes and Kevin O'Brien

 

[AndrewB]

This is going to be pretty mediocre side but I will have Eddo Brandes and Kevin O'Brien

Brandes is ineligible (born in SA).

 

[AndrewB]

Round 7 picks:

a massive zebra: Tamim Iqbal
ataraxia: Mohammad Nissar
Pothas: Bobby Abel
Line and Length: David Larter
mr_mister: Vijay Manjrekar
trundler: Archie MacLaren
SillyCowCorner1
Michaelf7777777
AndrewB: Allan Rae
kingkallis: JJ Ferris
Fuller Pilch: Kevin O'Brien
Teuton: Imtiaz Ahmed

Round 8:
Teuton: Wasim Raja
Fuller Pilch: Ravi Ratnayeke
kingkallis: Johnny Tyldesley
AndrewB: David Houghton
Michaelf7777777
SillyCowCorner1: Ray Price
trundler: Jack Blackham
mr_mister: Graeme Hick
Line and Length: Gerry Gomez
Pothas: Murray Goodwin
ataraxia
a massive zebra