*Official* Bangladesh in India 2019

[Spark]

The only places Lyon averages sub 30 are NZ(where he has played 2 tests), Bangladesh(again 2 tests) and WI(5 tests). He has a mediocre record everywhere else.

I didn't speak of just his home record by the way.

Averaging 34 in Australian conditions over 40+ Tests is an outstanding achievement by any objective measure. Australian attacks over the last decade have been consistently excellent on some very, very flat wickets, maybe giving credit to the bloke who has been a constant in those teams is in order?

He's not an ATG and won't be remembered as one, "goat" jokes notwithstanding. But his job is not to win plaudits from statcombers on cricket web dot net, it's to fulfill his very specific role within the attack and thus help win Tests and series for Australia, and for the most part - with some exceptions - he's done that well.

 

[harsh.ag]

Rohit has back issues and that is why he stopped bowling. Else there was a time when he was a very useful pie chucker in ODIs. I don't see him bowling much in tests. 4 paces means we will need at least 10-15 overs out of Vihari and I don't think that is sensible, especially given how most NZ wickets flatten out over time. I will play the same side as the Kolkata one for the first test and take it from there. Unless Bumrah is fit, in which case, he can come in for Umesh. If Ashwin's away record is considered woeful, you have to invent a whole new level for the crap that is Umesh's away record.

Well Umesh is a whole different bowler now. If Bumrah's fitness is in doubt, then I would definitely take a bet that he does well in NZ.

Can't play the same side as Kolkata. Need Vihari at 6.

 

[honestbharani]

Umesh is very much the same.. bit less pace and a bit more accurate but you could see how many loose balls he served up even in Kolkata. Given he is bowling at roughly 135 KPH, he is no longer worth including for "Genuine pace" either. As I said, I would rather play Bhuvi or Bumrah if they are fit given the conditions we can expect in NZ. But if both are not fit, obviously Umesh gets in.

 

[honestbharani]

Averaging 34 in Australian conditions over 40+ Tests is an outstanding achievement by any objective measure. Australian attacks over the last decade have been consistently excellent on some very, very flat wickets, maybe giving credit to the bloke who has been a constant in those teams is in order?

He's not an ATG and won't be remembered as one, "goat" jokes notwithstanding. But his job is not to win plaudits from statcombers on cricket web dot net, it's to fulfill his very specific role within the attack and thus help win Tests and series for Australia, and for the most part - with some exceptions - he's done that well.

Absolutely but by the same token, given he fulfills a specific role in a very specific type of bowling line up, it is also reasonable to assume others who face more varied challenges and have answered them can be considered above him, especially if the numbers are roughly the same. You can never really consider what an Aussie spinner has to bowl at and with in Australia with the away spinner unless the away team has just as good a pace attack. And I think Maharaj outbowled him last time RSA toured there. So there's that.

 

[Spark]

Absolutely but by the same token, given he fulfills a specific role in a very specific type of bowling line up, it is also reasonable to assume others who face more varied challenges and have answered them can be considered above him, especially if the numbers are roughly the same. You can never really consider what an Aussie spinner has to bowl at and with in Australia with the away spinner unless the away team has just as good a pace attack. And I think Maharaj outbowled him last time RSA toured there. So there's that.

I mean he hasn't been awful when he's gone overseas except for the UAE. His record in India is mixed, good in NZ, good in WI, I think he's been okay in SA and good-to-decent in England. Bear in mind that this is me just going on how I think he performed on each tour; numbers could tell a different story. The knock on Ashwin until semi-recently is that he became a complete passenger outside of India, I don't think it's fair to say Lyon has ever been like that. That I think is where the "Lyon > Ashwin" stuff comes from and it's not a completely unreasonable argument, it's just not one supported by direct average vs. average comparison.

 

[vcs]

Not saying that you do it, but people completely dismiss Ashwin's good performances in WI and SL for some reason.

Ashwin was by far the biggest factor in India's initial rise up the Test rankings. His performances away in SL 2015 (it was a tough assignment after we choked in Galle), SA at home (in transition, but they were No. 1 and unbeaten away from home in about a decade), WI, NZ and England at home were all brilliant and he had a strong case for Man of the Series in each of those. And this was a time when India were still very much spin reliant to make the breakthroughs unlike the last year and a half. He consistently delivered and got the opposition best batsmen like Sangakkara, De Villiers, Amla, Du Plessis, Root and Williamson out in those series. And he was averaging around 30 with the bat as well.

After England at home in 2016, Kohli hit his Test peak and has maintained it, and the quick bowlers have started becoming more and more prominent, but Ashwin in 2015-16 was definitely our best Test player.

 

[Daemon]

Lyon’s got fantastic numbers at home but tbf, he’s always playing alongside a good pace bowling attack and picking up the 1/2 fers when the going’s good. I’m aware that’s his role but that’s precisely why you can’t always compare his figures to touring spinners, who often have to bowl 30 overs because their quicks have **** the bed. The only comparable in recent times is Maharaj who excelled when given that role alongside a good pace attack.

 

[honestbharani]

I mean he hasn't been awful when he's gone overseas except for the UAE. His record in India is mixed, good in NZ, good in WI, I think he's been okay in SA and good-to-decent in England. Bear in mind that this is me just going on how I think he performed on each tour; numbers could tell a different story. The knock on Ashwin until semi-recently is that he became a complete passenger outside of India, I don't think it's fair to say Lyon has ever been like that. That I think is where the "Lyon > Ashwin" stuff comes from and it's not a completely unreasonable argument, it's just not one supported by direct average vs. average comparison.

Sure and as I said, there is equal merit in either side. It is a not a simple decision on who is the better spinner but to me, even based on the limited performances overseas last year, Ashwin has become a much more rounded bowler, contributing to test win(s) overseas (mainly Aus, Eng and RSA) and he is a much better bowler in his own conditions than Lyon has been in his. So that is where I fall in this argument. And really, I feel the only way you can do a fair comparison with Lyon in terms of performances in SENA for any other spinner is to see if they have a similar pace attack backing them up. And Ashwin's performances in 2018 at least make me feel that he will do just as well as Lyon with similar fast bowling talent around him.

 

[h_hurricane]

I mean he hasn't been awful when he's gone overseas except for the UAE. His record in India is mixed, good in NZ, good in WI, I think he's been okay in SA and good-to-decent in England. Bear in mind that this is me just going on how I think he performed on each tour; numbers could tell a different story. The knock on Ashwin until semi-recently is that he became a complete passenger outside of India, I don't think it's fair to say Lyon has ever been like that. That I think is where the "Lyon > Ashwin" stuff comes from and it's not a completely unreasonable argument, it's just not one supported by direct average vs. average comparison.

The issue is with this assertion that Ashwin has been a passenger outside India. He was great in SL in 2015 and WI in 2016 and neither of them were semi-recent. He has been Lyonesque in England(neither good nor thrash) while only being poor in Aus and SA.
I didn't want to get into Lyon vs Ashwin argument, but since we are in it, I would say the major reason Lyon is over-rated is because people consider him better than Ashwin while not setting the similar benchmark overseas. Ashwin leaves Lyon in the dust in friendlier conditions as well.

 

[Spark]

Sure and as I said, there is equal merit in either side. It is a not a simple decision on who is the better spinner but to me, even based on the limited performances overseas last year, Ashwin has become a much more rounded bowler, contributing to test win(s) overseas (mainly Aus, Eng and RSA) and he is a much better bowler in his own conditions than Lyon has been in his. So that is where I fall in this argument. And really, I feel the only way you can do a fair comparison with Lyon in terms of performances in SENA for any other spinner is to see if they have a similar pace attack backing them up. And Ashwin's performances in 2018 at least make me feel that he will do just as well as Lyon with similar fast bowling talent around him.

Yeah I'm not saying that Lyon is legitimately a better bowler than Ashwin overall - although I do think that I don't think Lyon's performances in Aus can be boxed off like so because he's been an integral part of the functioning of every Australian attack since Clarke took the captaincy - but merely that it's a substantially more complicated discussion than "Lyon's average > 30 therefore Lyon = mediocre". He's a very good bowler who has been a fine servant for Australian cricket for almost 100 Tests now.

 

[honestbharani]

Definitely.. They are both very good bowlers and there are good arguments to be made for both of them as the best spinner in the world, not just in their teams. Its not as simple as just looking up averages - the overall ones for Lyon or the SENA specific ones for Ashwin. There is a lot more context involved in those numbers that they alone cannot be the deciding factor either way.

 

[ishqiya]

If you extend that argument about Lyon having a higher average due to "home disadvantage", how good does that make Indian pacers? Considering the fact that all the good overseas bowlers have toured here in recent times and all averaged over 30 (some like Rabada, Wagner, Philander 40+).

 

[ishqiya]

The issue is with this assertion that Ashwin has been a passenger outside India. He was great in SL in 2015 and WI in 2016 and neither of them were semi-recent. He has been Lyonesque in England(neither good nor thrash) while only being poor in Aus and SA.
I didn't want to get into Lyon vs Ashwin argument, but since we are in it, I would say the major reason Lyon is over-rated is because people consider him better than Ashwin while not setting the similar benchmark overseas. Ashwin leaves Lyon in the dust in friendlier conditions as well.

When people talk about Lyon's SC record they only talk of his recent 2017 tours to India and Bang, not of the overall record of piss poor bowling in 2013 Ind, 2014 UAE, 2016 SL etc. But for Ashwin's SENA record they consider the entire career when thing is Ashwin was great this overseas leg. Was good in Adelaide and averaged better than Lyon in both the recent SA and Eng tours they had respectively.

 

[Daemon]

If you extend that argument about Lyon having a higher average due to "home disadvantage", how good does that make Indian pacers? Considering the fact that all the good overseas bowlers have toured here in recent times and all averaged over 30 (some like Rabada, Wagner, Philander 40+).

When people talk about Lyon's SC record they only talk of his recent 2017 tours to India and Bang, not of the overall record of piss poor bowling in 2013 Ind, 2014 UAE, 2016 SL etc. But for Ashwin's SENA record they consider the entire career when thing is Ashwin was great this overseas leg. Was good in Adelaide and averaged better than Lyon in both the recent SA and Eng tours they had respectively.

I know ishqiya usually talks drivel but these are excellent points.

 

[sledger]

The bias of HB in this thread really are impossible to ignore.

I've done my best to not comment on it, because it always just leads to a ****fight. But honestly, the lack of nuance is ****ing staggering.

Some of the posts re: Ashwin in particular, Good lord.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The bias of HB in this thread really are impossible to ignore.

I've done my best to not comment on it, because it always just leads to a ****fight. But honestly, the lack of nuance is ****ing staggering.

Some of the posts re: Ashwin in particular, Good lord.

I think you should probably shut up because you're just trying to stir **** up as usual for no other reason than to be an insufferable prick.

 

[sledger]

Well that's an interesting idea, and one I will take under advisement.

So anyway, as I was saying, the idea that Ashwin is the best choice spinner in all imaginable conditions really is difficult to understand. Still not got my head around how anyone could come to that conclusion, frankly.

 

[jimmy101]

Not sure what I'm looking forward to more when i wake up tomorrow. Checking the cricket scores, or checking this thread. Should be a win-win.

 

[Teja.]

I for one agree that OverratedSanity is based.

 

[honestbharani]

Not sure what I'm looking forward to more when i wake up tomorrow. Checking the cricket scores, or checking this thread. Should be a win-win.

There is only the Afg-Windies match going on right?