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View Poll Results: How good was Steyn as a pace bowler?

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  • Best of all time

    1 2.33%
  • ATG XI

    5 11.63%
  • Top 5 pacers of all time

    22 51.16%
  • Top 10 pacers of all time

    14 32.56%
  • Worse than top 10

    1 2.33%
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Thread: Where does Dale Steyn stack up historically

  1. #46
    International Debutant Slifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodAreasShane View Post
    Agree completely. Steyn was incredible and I don't by any means mean to devalue his achievements but those saying Steyn is easily the best are rather selling Donald short imo. Superb bowler, absolutely should be in the discussion regarding ATG pacers
    This

  2. #47
    Hall of Fame Member TheJediBrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trundler View Post
    Someone needs to double check it tho. One time I thought I had discovered some groundbreaking stat but was just reading the wrong column, lol.
    I'd also like to know their averages against 8-11. If Steyn has a much better average against the tail than McGrath, it would go someway to making up for the difference against top 7 batsmen.

    The more I think about it the stat of Steyn averaging 29 against top 7 doesn't seem right. He'd have to average like 5 against tailenders to get to where his career average is
    Last edited by TheJediBrah; 06-08-2019 at 07:05 PM.

  3. #48
    International Coach ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJediBrah View Post
    whelp that's my bad

    stat still serves the same purpose though. It's a pretty huge difference. If anything it's probably even more telling.
    Average against top 7 batsmen is not available on cricinfo or anywhere. What they publish is erroneous and garbage.
    OverratedSanity likes this.
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  4. #49
    International Coach ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Steyn averages around 29 against top 7 while McGrath(since 2002) averages around 23. As you pointed out Steyn has a better strike rate against top 7 than McGrath (53 vs 58).
    Pretty sure these stats are wrong.


  5. #50
    International Coach ankitj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by h_hurricane View Post
    A killer Steyn stat. More 5 wicket hauls in victories than any pace bowler in history.

    Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
    Quote Originally Posted by vcs View Post
    Hadlee's numbers there, **** me
    This is where I point out (yet again) that average in wins means nothing. You win more games against weaker teams and in favourable conditions e.g. home tests. So you are oversampling easier conditions and oppositions with average in wins. Also if you are the only good player surrounded by mediocrity, your team almost never wins when you don't do well so your failures are under sampled. Hence Kumble has a better bowling average in wins than Warne. In any case result of the match is not a condition that applies when players are bowling or batting (unlike nature of pitch) and hence cannot influence performance.
    Last edited by ankitj; 06-08-2019 at 08:38 PM.
    vcs, OverratedSanity and Bijed like this.

  6. #51
    International Regular CricAddict's Avatar
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    The top 5 players in any ATG ranking will all be equally good unless you are Bradman. Steyn is top 5 for me, so as good as 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5.
    "Even though itís a 2-2 series and England were telling me I couldnít celebrate a draw, but they did exactly that during the World Cup." - Nathan Lyon

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ankitj View Post
    This is where I point out (yet again) that average in wins means nothing. You win more games against weaker teams and in favourable conditions e.g. home tests. So you are oversampling easier conditions and oppositions with average in wins. Also if you are the only good player surrounded by mediocrity, your team almost never wins when you don't do well so your failures are under sampled. Hence Kumble has a better bowling average in wins than Warne. In any case result of the match is not a condition that applies when players are bowling or batting (unlike nature of pitch) and hence cannot influence performance.
    I completely get your point. Averages in wins undersell great players from ATG teams like Viv, Marshall, Mcgrath etc as these teams would win in many occasions even when these players are not performing. These were absolute numbers though. 22 5 wicket hauls in victories is still bloody impressive. Steyn and Hadlee didn't have long careers like Anderson for instance.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm View Post
    Steyn averages around 29 against top 7 while McGrath(since 2002) averages around 23. As you pointed out Steyn has a better strike rate against top 7 than McGrath (53 vs 58).
    How do we get this information ? Unless ball by ball analysis is available for a good part of 2 decades. I am sure Mcgrath was better than Steyn in this metric, but doubt by the extent what it says.

  9. #54
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    I've subscribed to CricViz and Steyn averaged 24 against the top 7 and McGrath averaged 36.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    I've subscribed to CricViz and Steyn averaged 24 against the top 7 and McGrath averaged 36.
    I subscribed last week and says that Daemon's posts are worse than his face

  11. #56
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    Both McGrath and Steyn are ATG bowlers. They are arguably among Top 3 Test bowlers of all time.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by h_hurricane View Post
    I completely get your point. Averages in wins undersell great players from ATG teams like Viv, Marshall, Mcgrath etc as these teams would win in many occasions even when these players are not performing. These were absolute numbers though. 22 5 wicket hauls in victories is still bloody impressive. Steyn and Hadlee didn't have long careers like Anderson for instance.
    I'm no fan of stats in wins or 5 wicket hauls as measures.

    Sure felt like Steyn turned a lot of matches and series with spells out of nowhere when nobody else would have been able to get the job done though.

  13. #58
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    Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath and Imran are the only ones I'd definitely rate above him. Wasim, Trueman, Lillee, Holding and Ambrose are on a similar plain.
    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    I can think of a list of Sydney Grade posters who would contribute a better average post than Bahnz.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Hill View Post
    Not to take the attention away from Steyn, but how often does his countryman Allan Donald get overlooked in these threads? Donald was phenomenal.
    Donald generally under rated both in tests and ODis.

    Barnes , Akram , Hadlee , Marshall , McGrath, Lillee , Steyn , Trueman . My top 8 .
    Donald and Imran completes top 10.

  15. #60
    Hall of Fame Member TheJediBrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ankitj View Post
    This is where I point out (yet again) that average in wins means nothing. You win more games against weaker teams and in favourable conditions e.g. home tests. So you are oversampling easier conditions and oppositions with average in wins. Also if you are the only good player surrounded by mediocrity, your team almost never wins when you don't do well so your failures are under sampled. Hence Kumble has a better bowling average in wins than Warne. In any case result of the match is not a condition that applies when players are bowling or batting (unlike nature of pitch) and hence cannot influence performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bolo View Post
    I'm no fan of stats in wins or 5 wicket hauls as measures.

    Sure felt like Steyn turned a lot of matches and series with spells out of nowhere when nobody else would have been able to get the job done though.
    I don't think anyone's using it as a real measure though. It's just an interesting stat that can tell a story about a player, their team and the relation between them. No one's claiming that it's a decisive measure of how good a player is.
    Bolo likes this.

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