ODI ATG XIs

[Bolo]

I'm not saying this true at all, but even if it was, it's assuming that your ATG side is playing normal sides. If your ATG side is playing another ATG side then the batting isn't really "stronger" than a normal international side, relative to the opposition



Sounds about right. Meanwhile you'd have young Andrew Symonds somehow timing drives to deep cover on the full and gets out for 10 (10).

Funny game cricket

This is more of a test comment. The limited number of deliveries plus the state of the game means teams typically make 50 overs. Set bats bats fall as much to RR pressure as balls being being too good for them to deal with.

Macgrath had a sr of 34- 340 balls for ten wickets, against average lineups, not atg ones. I think hes the quickest striker of the top tier bowlers. Others will be slower, especially the 5th. An atg bowling lineup wont typically run through an atg batting lineup- RR will usually be what matters.

 

[h_hurricane]

Bevan's shots made it look as though he never timed a ball properly. My abiding memory of him is mistiming the ball to some outfielder on those huge Australian grounds and him running 2s and 3s as a result.

The ultimate minimizer

 

[stephen]

You're right to a certain extent there Bolo.

In good batting conditions Bevan is going to go to waste. But anyone you pick in an ATG ODI side is going to languish batting at 7. A case could be made for picking Kapil Dev at 7 due to his high strike rate. Most of the time, with (presumably) Tendulkar, Viv, Kohli and de Villiers batting in the 1,3,4 and 5 slots, whoever bats 6 and 7 is not going to get much of a bat (just like Hussey in the 2007 WC). Where Bevan would be useful is when the basing conditions are poor against an ATG attack. Lose early wickets and Bevan can stabilise and build.

Presumably everyone else in the ATG ODI side are going to be striking at 85+. I think there is room for a guy who was the best batsman in history at controlling chases and stabilising collapses.

 

[Bolo]

You're right to a certain extent there Bolo.

In good batting conditions Bevan is going to go to waste. But anyone you pick in an ATG ODI side is going to languish batting at 7. A case could be made for picking Kapil Dev at 7 due to his high strike rate. Most of the time, with (presumably) Tendulkar, Viv, Kohli and de Villiers batting in the 1,3,4 and 5 slots, whoever bats 6 and 7 is not going to get much of a bat (just like Hussey in the 2007 WC). Where Bevan would be useful is when the basing conditions are poor against an ATG attack. Lose early wickets and Bevan can stabilise and build.

Presumably everyone else in the ATG ODI side are going to be striking at 85+. I think there is room for a guy who was the best batsman in history at controlling chases and stabilising collapses.

Picking between dependability and explosiveness from a lower order bat is tricky. You are picking between small gains frequently and big ones occasionally. Bevan is at the extreme end favouring dependability. Its possible the best balance lies at the other extreme and kapil would actually be the best number 7 (although its almost certainly worth sacrificing a tiny bit of explosiveness for a lot of reliability and picking someone like klusenar).

Anyway, i agree theres room for a bevan role for reasons you are arguing. It just goes to dhoni in my team. Same role and very similar quality as bats, but Dhoni brings extra benefits. Bevan makes my 2nd team.

 

[Tom Flint]

I'd be interested to hear any variations on a top 5 of
Gilchrist
Tendulkar
Viv
Kohli
Abdv

 

[TheJediBrah]

An atg bowling lineup wont typically run through an atg batting lineup- RR will usually be what matters.

I don't see any reason to think this is the case. An ATG bowling line up should be just as likely to "run through" an ATG batting line up as 2 teams in a normal international match.

 

[trundler]

Hell, I'll say peak Garner and McGrath are more likely to run through an ATG lineup in a high stakes match than a good attack in a normal international match.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Hell, I'll say peak Garner and McGrath are more likely to run through an ATG lineup in a high stakes match than a good attack in a normal international match.

Yeah
Yeah McGrath was the kind of guy who tended to step up against the quality batsmen too, wouldn't surprise me if other ATG bowlers were similar

 

[Red]

I'd be interested to hear any variations on a top 5 of
Gilchrist
Tendulkar
Viv
Kohli
Abdv

The traditional main sticking point between ATG ODI teams is between Gilchrist/Symonds (or someone similar) and Dhoni/Jayasuriya.

Gilchrist +
Tendulkar
Richards
Kohli
DeVilliers
Symonds

vs

Jayasuriya
Tendulkar
Richards
Kohli
DeVilliers
Dhoni +

There's merit in either, although I tend to favour the Gilchrist edition because if he went with the bat at the top, the game was very hard to reign in for the opposition.

 

[marc71178]

Whereas Jayasuriya was such a slouch...

 

[stephen]

Whereas Jayasuriya was such a slouch...

Yeah it more depends on whether his bowling is more valuable to the team than Gilchrist's keeping. Gilchrist was probably a fractionally better bat than Jayasuriya, especially outside the subcontinent.

If you want Dhoni, go with Jayasuriya and Symonds. If you want Gilchrist go with Bevan and Klusener.

 

[NZTailender]

It's interesting, because apart from Tendulkar-Richards-Kohli, you can have almost 2 ATG XI that would be of equal batting strength in a loth of ways.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It's interesting, because apart from Tendulkar-Richards-Kohli, you can have almost 2 ATG XI that would be of equal batting strength in a loth of ways.

Yeah it's much of a muchness. Probably why the arguments never get resolved, because there's no clear winner.

 

[Second Spitter]

I'm sure we've done this before, but with the WC just around the corner it might be fun to come up with some ATG ODI XIs for each nation. Post what you think each nation's XI is and at the end we'll see if some sort of consensus can be had.

Australia

Gilchrist
Watson
Ponting
M.Waugh
Jones
Symonds
Hussey
Warne
Lee
Bracken
McGrath

****en? Seriously?

 

[stephen]

****en? Seriously?

Bracken was a seriously good ODI bowler. I'd probably take a few others ahead of him but he's certainly in the conversation for an Australian XI.

 

[Bolo]

I don't see any reason to think this is the case. An ATG bowling line up should be just as likely to "run through" an ATG batting line up as 2 teams in a normal international match.

Teams dont typically lose all wickets in a normal international match though. Atg bowlers manage just over a wicket per match on average against regular bats. Guys like bevan take a lot longer to dismiss than regular bats.

There is an argument to be made that atg bowlers would strike as fast against an atg lineup as they did normally. Bats often play out the best bowler and go after the weaker ones, which isnt viable here. The quality delta between the best few bats and the typical one is enormous though. I dont see it being compensated for, let alone outstripped to a significant extent.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Bracken was a seriously good ODI bowler. I'd probably take a few others ahead of him but he's certainly in the conversation for an Australian XI.

Yeah I like the selection of Bracken. It's bold and definitely warranted.

 

[Victor Ian]

Keep in mind the idea of average. Average is the average. Wickets do not come every 30 odd wickets. They come in clumps and voids. When the clumps happen, and they will happen, you need a Bevan or Dhoni to get you out of the ****. Even in all time great teams. I would rather someone who knows how to steady the ship because if my great bashers are getting out, one more doesn't solve much, but a finisher will. If the bashers are not getting out - those down the list are not really needed. None of the lower order are.

 

[Andy1993]

Bracken was ranked no1, for a while i believe in ODI'S, defo deserves to be in that side, taking the new ball with McGrath, and Lee first change

 

[mr_mister]

Bracken was awesome in ODIs nearly every time I watched him bowl. Starcs been great so far but he might taper off as his bowling seems pretty toothless in tests(then again so was Brackens)

We'll see at the upcoming WC if he's still an ODI beast