Weak Ends to A career

[OverratedSanity]

Yep. Oppossite of Sachin who worked hard to bring India to #1 and win the WC, following which he decided to skip a tour and go in unprepared to England, lead us through 0-8 and then still insist on staying on for the 100th 100 and until BCCI had to arrange a farewell for him.

That makes no sense. Tendulkar played tests for a further year after that 100th 100. The rushed farewell tour being arranged, thus truncating the upcoming SA tour was terrible, but it had nothing to do with the 100th 100 which he'd already got back in 2012.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The point isn't that they weren't dropped. The point is that he was resting on their #1 and WC laurels, skipped a tour and then played on despite knowing they weren't up for a fight.

Also the focus isn't 0-8, it's the 4 series and 12 matches he played after that searching for his 100 and the 200 Tests, where there were 100% better batsmen waiting for a chance.

Tendulkar being in the team kept Rahane out who was the logical next in line. I was criticizing Sachin for it at the time, but in a twisted sort of way it worked in India and Rahane's favour since we had no idea at the time that Rahane would be a spud in home conditions.

Sachin knew. WAG.

 

[cnerd123]

The point isn't that they weren't dropped. The point is that he was resting on their #1 and WC laurels, skipped a tour and then played on despite knowing they weren't up for a fight.

Also the focus isn't 0-8, it's the 4 series and 12 matches he played after that searching for his 100 and the 200 Tests, where there were 100% better batsmen waiting for a chance.

I agree with the frustration but the blame really should go to the selectors.

And yea as OS said he played on beyond the 100th 100 too. Was hanging on for the 200th Test - but again, I blame selectors for that.

 

[mr_mister]

Wow the one that sticks out to me there is Sherwin Campbell who finished with a career average of just 32, so the second half of his career must have been horific.

Dujon also finished with a low 30s average but he had a much longer career and was a wicket keeper first and foremost, so we can let him off.

He only averaged above 50 for his first 13 tests. the last 3 quarters of his career were pretty woeful with the odd shining moment.

Him and Jimmy Adams both toiled hard through the mid to late 90s though, and both their careers were finally laid to rest in the 5-0 drubbing over here in 2000/01. Campbell did get to play one final test in 02 though.

That series was probably the wake-up call for the ICC to not allow 5 test series when there was too big a gulf between team's quality, ashes notwithstanding

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sherwin Campbell's hundred in the famous Lara test at Bridgetown probably one of the greatest forgotten tons ever.

 

[a massive zebra]

He only averaged above 50 for his first 13 tests. the last 3 quarters of his career were pretty woeful with the odd shining moment.

Him and Jimmy Adams both toiled hard through the mid to late 90s though, and both their careers were finally laid to rest in the 5-0 drubbing over here in 2000/01. Campbell did get to play one final test in 02 though.

That series was probably the wake-up call for the ICC to not allow 5 test series when there was too big a gulf between team's quality, ashes notwithstanding

What happened to him? Did he have a specific weakness that was only discovered after he had played for a couple of years? Did he have a career altering injury that subsequently hindered his game? Did he get complacent after having established his place in the side? Were his first few series against minnows?

 

[Daemon]

That makes no sense. Tendulkar played tests for a further year after that 100th 100. The rushed farewell tour being arranged, thus truncating the upcoming SA tour was terrible, but it had nothing to do with the 100th 100 which he'd already got back in 2012.

Yeah I mixed up the 100th ton and the 200th test

 

[Shri]

I agree with the frustration but the blame really should go to the selectors.

Heh, no one wants to be the guy who dropped Sachin.

 

[cnerd123]

Heh, no one wants to be the guy who dropped Sachin.

Too much #pressure for the selectors

 

[Maximas]

Inzamam-ul-Haq, Misbah-ul-Haq, JC Adams, Saeed Ahmed, Sarfraz Ahmed, DL Amiss, HM Amla, M Azharuddin, GS Ballance, EJ Barlow, KC Bland, BC Booth, G Boycott, DM Bravo, WA Brown, BF Butcher, SL Campbell, MJ Clarke, HL Collins, AN Cook, RM Cowper, Q de Kock, ER Dexter, BL D'Oliveira, PJL Dujon, F du Plessis, GA Faulkner, JHW Fingleton, G Gambhir, SC Ganguly, AC Gilchrist, DI Gower, CG Greenidge, AW Greig, Mominul Haque, J Hardstaff jnr, RN Harvey, AL Hassett, VS Hazare, EH Hendren, DPMD Jayawardene, AH Jones, DM Jones, AI Kallicharran, Mohsin Khan, UT Khawaja, WM Lawry, DS Lehmann, DR Martyn, AD Mathews, SJ McCabe, RB McCosker, CC McDonald, CP Mead, Shoaib Mohammad, AR Morris, NCL O'Neill, PH Parfitt, KP Pietersen, WH Ponsford, G Pullar, AM Rahane, JF Reid, MH Richardson, LG Rowe, JA Rudolph, JD Ryder, TT Samaraweera, V Sehwag, MJ Slater, GC Smith, RA Smith, JB Stollmeyer, AJ Strauss, MA Taylor, IJL Trott, GM Turner, MP Vaughan, KD Walters, DA Warner, WM Woodfull and FMM Worrell all averaged over 50 at one point (having scored at least 1000 runs).

Good lord

 

[TheJediBrah]

I agree with the frustration but the blame really should go to the selectors.

And yea as OS said he played on beyond the 100th 100 too. Was hanging on for the 200th Test - but again, I blame selectors for that.

Not really. He could have retired if he wasn't up to it. Selectors could have genuinely been in physical danger for dropping him.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Adams is an interesting one, always got the impression he was never quite the same after copping one to the face from Andre van Troost.

 

[andruid]

Never liked how Cricket Kenya kept dragging Steve Tikoli out if retirement. Didn't really stop the decline and hindered some of the talent coming through from stepping up.

 

[Shri]

Broad's batting, after Varun Aaron's bouncer:

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

before the bouncer:

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Went to averaging 13 from 24 as a bat.

 

[the big bambino]

Trundler is ranking Ponting top 5 of all time. Many people are disagreeing. I'm defending my disagreement with the fact that he was better home than away and pointing to the disparity in home away averages for AUS batmen. This is what we are actually discussing.

AUS pitches favour batmen.

Visiting batmen to any country are at a disadvantage because they are not used to conditions while the bowlers are.
Additionally visiting batmen to AUS are at a disadvantage relative to other countries because AUS almost always has good bowlers. This point plus the previous account for why visiting batting averages are not great.

AUS batsmen are typically worse than their stats suggest because of pitch conditions while their bowlers are typically better. This is often a claim made for subcontinental players, but should be recognised for AUS as well now, because pitches have changed. The opposite is true for South Africans.

Well you didn't. You said our pitches were flat. The implication being they are lifeless. It doesn't matter how good the relative merits of the bowlers are they will always struggle in lifeless conditions and batsmen will consequentially dominate. Use the test where Taylor scored 290 as a representative example. Didn't seem to be too concerned about the bowlers now did he?

So your point is basically to mark down Australia's batsmen because pitches here are lifeless. But how to sustain that point and explain the relative failure of OS batsmen in exactly the same conditions? Ah you say, our bowlers are so good. Yet, McGrath and Warne apart, they seem to not do much better when the ball is swinging in say England and when conditions are supposedly more helpful. Your excuse also overlooks the fact some pretty useful bowlers have come here in Ambrose, Walsh, Shoaib, Waqar, Akram, Steyn, Morkel, Donald, Pollock, De Villiers, Philander, Abbott, Rabada, Gough, Flintoff, Harmison, Murali, Saqlain ... others not as good but still a good standard. So if the conditions are the same and the competition a lot closer than you think then you run out of excuses.

Meaning there is no reason to specifically single out Australian batsmen "as typically worse then their stats suggest". If they perform better at home than OS they are no different to anyone else. So judgment of their stats can be made without the qualification you seem so desperate to make.

 

[Bolo]

Well you didn't. You said our pitches were flat. The implication being they are lifeless. It doesn't matter how good the relative merits of the bowlers are they will always struggle in lifeless conditions and batsmen will consequentially dominate. Use the test where Taylor scored 290 as a representative example. Didn't seem to be too concerned about the bowlers now did he?

So your point is basically to mark down Australia's batsmen because pitches here are lifeless. But how to sustain that point and explain the relative failure of OS batsmen in exactly the same conditions? Ah you say, our bowlers are so good. Yet, McGrath and Warne apart, they seem to not do much better when the ball is swinging in say England and when conditions are supposedly more helpful. Your excuse also overlooks the fact some pretty useful bowlers have come here in Ambrose, Walsh, Shoaib, Waqar, Akram, Steyn, Morkel, Donald, Pollock, De Villiers, Philander, Abbott, Rabada, Gough, Flintoff, Harmison, Murali, Saqlain ... others not as good but still a good standard. So if the conditions are the same and the competition a lot closer than you think then you run out of excuses.

Meaning there is no reason to specifically single out Australian batsmen "as typically worse then their stats suggest". If they perform better at home than OS they are no different to anyone else. So judgment of their stats can be made without the qualification you seem so desperate to make.

If you reread the middle paragraph you'll find I've covered this. I don't feel like going in circles anymore.

There's something I'd like to expand on though because it is adding something new to the conversation.

"This is often a claim made for subcontinental players, but should be recognised for AUS as well now.

Ignoring Pakistanis because home/away is problematic (and because I'm less familiar with them), the best Asian bats of recent times were Dravid, Tendulkar, and Sanga. All of these guys averaged pretty much the same home and away. This is rare and should be appreciated. There have also been a number of lesser batmen who had reasonably comparable averages, like Jayawardene, Sehwag, Samaweera who bullied home or Asia, averaging something like 50% more at home. I think some people conflate the two groups (as well as the lesser bats who tend to fail catastrophically overseas) fail to give due credit to the first group as a result. I know I've been guilty of this reductivism in the past.

In contrast to Asia is AUS, where all the best bats since Ponting average something like 50% more home than away. The reductivism seems to be a lot more appropriate in their case. Sehwag gets more flak for only performing on one continent than AUS bats do for only performing in one country, which is really silly.

 

[trundler]

I'll be the first to say MS Dhoni.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I'll be the first to say MS Dhoni.

When did it start?

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Hashim Amla. His average has plummeted to 47.6. I hope he can turn things around

 

[TheJediBrah]

Well you didn't. You said our pitches were flat. The implication being they are lifeless. It doesn't matter how good the relative merits of the bowlers are they will always struggle in lifeless conditions and batsmen will consequentially dominate. Use the test where Taylor scored 290 as a representative example. Didn't seem to be too concerned about the bowlers now did he?

So your point is basically to mark down Australia's batsmen because pitches here are lifeless. But how to sustain that point and explain the relative failure of OS batsmen in exactly the same conditions? Ah you say, our bowlers are so good. Yet, McGrath and Warne apart, they seem to not do much better when the ball is swinging in say England and when conditions are supposedly more helpful. Your excuse also overlooks the fact some pretty useful bowlers have come here in Ambrose, Walsh, Shoaib, Waqar, Akram, Steyn, Morkel, Donald, Pollock, De Villiers, Philander, Abbott, Rabada, Gough, Flintoff, Harmison, Murali, Saqlain ... others not as good but still a good standard. So if the conditions are the same and the competition a lot closer than you think then you run out of excuses.

Meaning there is no reason to specifically single out Australian batsmen "as typically worse then their stats suggest". If they perform better at home than OS they are no different to anyone else. So judgment of their stats can be made without the qualification you seem so desperate to make.

If someone really wants to decide that Australian batsmen aren't as good as their stats suggest because "Australian pitches are flat" is fine by me. As long as they accept the reverse for bowlers. Which would mean that McGrath, Gillespie, Warne etc's stats should be even better than they are and by this logic makes them all undisputed ATG bowlers with virtually no peer.

They'd also have to give Australian batsmen more credit for playing away than other country's batsmen get, if they insist that Australian pitches are so foreign to everyone else.

Problem is people want it all both ways, try to invent contrived logic to discredit Australian batsmen's stats but not give corresponding credit to their bowlers. I'm not saying this is what Bolo is doing but I've seen it done here before and it's funny to see the lengths people will go to to twist things in their mind.

Personally I think it's all bs and the stats for both batting and bowling are about where they should be in comparison with the rest of the world (with the exception of stats in Australia since 2014-15 since they genuinely have been lifeless wickets other than the Adelaide Day/Night Tests).