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Thread: Variation of the pitch?

  1. #16
    Request Your Custom Title Now! OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    I argued the same as you guys ages ago and Benchy and Goughy (iirc) completely ripped into me, they were very certain you can. I can't even recall their arguments lol but I took their word for it because they're good players irl.
    It's physically impossible AFAIC. No bowler has that much control over a ball's trajectory after it's left his hand. There's so much that can happen in the 15 or so yards that the ball is in the air that it's just not possible that s bowler can be sure what the angle of the seam will be at the point where it hits the pitch. As StephenZA said he can make it more likely to go one way with the angle of the seam but it's still not in any way a guarantee.

    I've actually spoken to Javagal Srinath on this and although it's never a good idea to trust an Indian fast bowler on his knowledge of the game, he seemed confident.
    Last edited by OverratedSanity; 13-10-2017 at 05:42 AM.
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  2. #17
    Request Your Custom Title Now! OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    This is true for spin as well though... the exact position it hits on the ball the grip it gets off the pitch, while controlled through revolution is not guaranteed. And this is true for every ball ever bowled regradless of style. The best are just better at controlling it.
    Nah definitely not. If you bowl a leg break it isn't going to accidentally become a googly and turn the other way. Spinners have full control over which way the ball goes... The extent of spin which is under their control is debatable but the direction is a guarantee.
    Last edited by OverratedSanity; 13-10-2017 at 05:42 AM.
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  3. #18
    Hall of Fame Member TheJediBrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    I argued the same as you guys ages ago and Benchy and Goughy (iirc) completely ripped into me, they were very certain you can. I can't even recall their arguments lol but I took their word for it because they're good players irl.
    Evidently not a good assumption to make

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    It makes sense that it's something that people can control, although probably not very well. There are bowlers who constantly get it to nip in, but rarely have it straighten, all while bowling with a straight seam. If it were random there'd be less of a discrepancy no?

    I know guys who complain that when they try to bowl and outswinger and it doesn't swing, the ball just nips back in slightly.

    I don't think it's a perfected art or guys doing it at will, put there is some degree of control that top players have over seam movement.
    Sorry but there really isn't. Just think about how movement off the seam works for a bit, just the physics and common sense of it, and you'll start to see why it's absurd to think you can control the direction of movement. Maybe it's possible to slightly increase the chances of it moving one way by altering seam position, like say 55/45 instead of 50/50, but even then it's doubtful.

    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    This is true for spin as well though... the exact position it hits on the ball the grip it gets off the pitch, while controlled through revolution is not guaranteed. And this is true for every ball ever bowled regradless of style. The best are just better at controlling it.
    No it just seems that way at times. It looks great when the way the ball moves turns out to be beneficial, and can be very tempting to attribute it to the bowler, but it's effectively entirely up to luck.
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  4. #19
    Hall of Fame Member TheJediBrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverratedSanity View Post
    Nah definitely not. If you bowl a leg break it isn't going to accidentally become a googly and turn the other way. Spinners have full control over which way the ball goes... The extent of spin which is under their control is debatable but the direction is a guarantee.
    Yeah they are completely different things. That's a very poor comparison


  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverratedSanity View Post
    Nah definitely not. If you bowl a leg break it isn't going to accidentally become a googly and turn the other way. Spinners have full control over which way the ball goes... The extent of spin which is under their control is debatable but the direction is a guarantee.
    I thought we where talking variation not bowling style....of course a spinner will always spin the ball in a specfic direction, but the amount and variation is the skill of the bowler and pitch. Similarly, for the seamer, who can control the seam position enough to get the ball to move in the direction he wants more often than not, based on his skill. How much movement is another thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJediBrah View Post
    No it just seems that way at times. It looks great when the way the ball moves turns out to be beneficial, and can be very tempting to attribute it to the bowler, but it's effectively entirely up to luck.
    I`ve seen Philander and McGrath control the seam position and get the ball going the right way to often to setup batsmen, that I can only disagree with you.
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  6. #21
    International Coach Starfighter's Avatar
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    Hmm. I'm not sure what to make of what is being said here. I reckon that as far as swing/seam goes the mechanics of the release and their resultant effect on how the ball hits the pitch will control the movement. As far as the bowler actually being able to control what is happening, that's a different issue. Yes having the seam dead upright or wobbling should give some randomising effect but other factors are also important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemon View Post
    It makes sense that it's something that people can control, although probably not very well. There are bowlers who constantly get it to nip in, but rarely have it straighten, all while bowling with a straight seam. If it were random there'd be less of a discrepancy no?

    I know guys who complain that when they try to bowl and outswinger and it doesn't swing, the ball just nips back in slightly.

    I don't think it's a perfected art or guys doing it at will, put there is some degree of control that top players have over seam movement.
    Recently I watched an interview thingy with Darren Gough where he mentioned that he released the ball with the seam ever so slightly tilted, which meant landing on one side of the seam, and so tended to seam it back in. The bowlers with the straight seam who only move the ball one way from Daemon's post are probably having he same thing happen.
    The reason why out swing bowlers tend to cut the ball back in is because of the direction that the ball is rotating to produce the seam position for an out swinger. It's worth remembering that the off cutter was actually developed first, and that bowlers would likely have found that an action and release that suited an off cutter would produce an out swinger if the seam was released steadily. This doesn't mean they could consciously control the movement, but the effect of the release will tend to promote a certain type of movement whether the seam is wobbling or straight.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverratedSanity View Post
    This being the key. The angle of the seam makes it more likely that it'll land the way you want and seam the direction you want. There is still very much an element of randomness here beyond the bowler's control.
    Quote Originally Posted by OverratedSanity View Post
    It's physically impossible AFAIC. No bowler has that much control over a ball's trajectory after it's left his hand. There's so much that can happen in the 15 or so yards that the ball is in the air that it's just not possible that s bowler can be sure what the angle of the seam will be at the point where it hits the pitch. As StephenZA said he can make it more likely to go one way with the angle of the seam but it's still not in any way a guarantee.
    Yeah, I doubt very much anyone can control it in the strictest sense of the word, otherwise we'd be seeing a lot more of it.

    But they can certainly get it to go a certain way intentionally once in a while. It's a little bit of a, little bit of b.
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  8. #23
    Hall of Fame Member TheJediBrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephenZA View Post
    I thought we where talking variation not bowling style....of course a spinner will always spin the ball in a specfic direction, but the amount and variation is the skill of the bowler and pitch. Similarly, for the seamer, who can control the seam position enough to get the ball to move in the direction he wants more often than not, based on his skill. How much movement is another thing.

    I`ve seen Philander and McGrath control the seam position and get the ball going the right way to often to setup batsmen, that I can only disagree with you.
    You can think whatever you like. It's completely absurd though.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJediBrah View Post
    You can think whatever you like. It's completely absurd though.
    As is making an (incorrect) blanket statement.

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    Lets not go down this path bois, was a pretty civil discussion.
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  11. #26
    International Coach Starfighter's Avatar
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    Sorry, but I do think it's rather silly to say that a very good bowler couldn't exert some sort of control over how the seam is impacting the pitch, and the resultant movement.

  12. #27
    Hall of Fame Member TheJediBrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfighter View Post
    Sorry, but I do think it's rather silly to say that a very good bowler couldn't exert some sort of control over how the seam is impacting the pitch, and the resultant movement.
    This thread just really caught me off guard, I didn't think that there were cricket fans out there who legitimately thought that was possible. Didn't mean to be rude it was just a bit of a shock.

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