Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 34
Like Tree14Likes

Thread: Jacob Oram the Forgotten Allrounder - What Could Have Been

  1. #1
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    ksfls;fsl;lsFJg/s
    Posts
    28,228

    Jacob Oram the Forgotten Allrounder - What Could Have Been

    Jacob Oram is one of the most underrated test allrounders to play the game, and was closer to Chris Cairns and Andrew Flintoff than most, even in New Zealand, would think at first glance. He should have gone on to be one of the great allrounders alongside those two, but he didn't.

    I've been watching a lot of him on youtube lately (videos to follow) and I love how good this bloke was. At his peak in the mid 2000s the only allrounder who was a better batsman than him was Jacques Kallis.

    I'll get the silly stats out of the way first. At one stage averaged in the middle forties with the bat, and look at the attacks he took on - 2 hundreds and a 90 against South Africa from 7 tests, one against Australia from 2 tests and 1 against England from 8 tests. He also has a 97 against Pakistan. If I wanted to indulge in cute statistical manipulation to suit my argument (and I do) I'd exclude his best friend Murali from the equation and his first series against India on the pitches Ganguly cried about to push his career average from 36 to 43.

    He mauled a Pakistan containing a rampant Shoaib who would have skittled us if not for he and Richardson before being robbed of his first test hundred by Shabbir the thrower (Shoiab took 11 in the match and Pakistan won by a lot), he scored a hundred and a 90 against Pollock, Ntini and co when they toured here (Cairns and Oram in partnership fap fap fap) and his efforts were vital to our good series against them, gave Pollock, Ntini and a young Steyn some grief at Centurion with another big ton coming in at 4/38 (we lost that game by a lot) and had his crowning moment of glory against McGrath, Warne, Gillespie and Kaspa, rescuing New Zealand from 180/6 in style and being 126* at the end (we lost that game by even more).

    That was the end of the glory days, he just had one more ton bullying Bangladesh before helping New Zealand draw at Lords 2008 despite his confidence being in ruins against the short ball and looking a mess in general.

    It's a travesty he played his last test at just 31 years old. He's only 35 now, and should still be playing or just retired. When he first arrived on the scene he was a big allrounder who could bang it in at over 140 at times and bat with maturity beyond his experience. What happened? Well the bowling is easy - injuries happened, and reduced him to a miserly medium pacer who extracted good bounce with deliveries that hit the bat hard but were no better than excellent 4th seamer material. His batting is more mystifying. He never was a technician, and he appears a forerunner to Neesham and Ryder in that respect, but his eye was so incredible it didn't bother him as he happily went about scoring runs against world class bowlers not called Murali. You could say he was found out, but with respect to some of the attacks he faced later on if an attack is going to show you how much you suck it's probably going to be mid 2000s Australia or South Africa, or a Shoiab yorker. There wasn't really much to find out to begin with - he saw the ball, he played the ball. It was not slogging, there's plenty of timing and stroking in the video below. He was adept at playing the ball on its merits despite his reputation as a big hitter.

    Did his eyes desert him? Maybe, after the 2007 world cup he was never the same batsman again, but it wasn't like he was long in the tooth either. 29/30 is a very young age for your eyes to go. A loss in confidence? Maybe. He was a gentleman to the media, but there was a sense he never truly believed in himself as much as he could, though this could be coloured by Nathan Astle making the same assessment of him in his autobiography. During his long decline he made a lot of noises about wanting to be back home with his wife and son rather than on tour. He also had huge shoes to fill, and frequently protested he was not the next Chris Cairns but the first Jacob Oram. In a way he had as much pressure on his shoudlers as the line of poor sods touted as the next Martin Crowe.

    A loss of hunger, love for the game, and a shift in priorities then? Could be. All I know is it is a crying shame he's remembered for the ODI dobbler who hit that hundred in an ODI once rather than the beast of a test match allrounder he was. When diagnosing why the late 00s team sucked (quickly summarised as having **** players), the loss of Fleming, Bond, the revolving door of opening batsmen and Ryder being a drunk are the conventional answers but this bloke rarely gets a mention despite being the perfect candidate for completing a h4x 6-8 of Oram-McCullum-Vettori which would have created even more jailbreak shenanigans in partnership with Taylor than it already did. Instead our number sixes were often James Franklin or Grant Elliott.

    He retired with the same number of test hundreds as Chris Cairns and Andrew Flintoff from half the matches. He retired as the ex-football goalie who was brilliant in the field, a team man who joked about cutting his fingers off to make the world cup and always conducted himself with grace in the media despite being called soft and weak every five minutes by fat 40 year old men from their armchairs. But he also faded into a limited overs bits and pieces player who didn't really want to be there, and that makes Phlegm sad. If he had played for a team that wasn't the test cricket fashion equivalent of a brown paper bag people would actually care about him.

    Here's to Jacob Oram, one of the most underrated cricketers and unfulfilled talents to don the whites. Oram WAG.

    Last edited by Flem274*; 15-07-2014 at 06:33 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jeets doesn't really deserve to be bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
    Proudly supporting Central Districts
    RIP Craig Walsh

  2. #2
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    On top of a pile of money, surrounded by many beautiful women
    Posts
    7,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    When he first arrived on the scene he was a big allrounder who could bang it in at over 140 at times and bat with maturity beyond his experience. What happened? Well the bowling is easy - injuries happened, and reduced him to a miserly medium pacer who extracted good bounce with deliveries that hit the bat hard but were no better than excellent 4th seamer material.
    Lolwat.

    Oram was never any more than a 125-130 plodder. His height and accuracy made him a very handy 5th bowler - indeed by the closing stages of his test career he was probably close to being New Zealand's best seamer - but he was never anything more than a medium pacer. He actually got progressively faster as his batting declined in the later stages of his career, and he was still never capable of anything more than 135.

    But yeah, Oram was a classy player and a huge loss to NZ cricket. Will always remember him clouting Warne and McGrath out of the Gabba with gleeful abandon in 2005. His hundred in South Africa in 2006 also was immense in retrospect, even though at the time we probably didn't give it the credit that it deserved given that Steyn was obviously nothing more than a skiddy pie-chucker. I would also argue that his eye didn't desert him after 2007. He still had an excellent tour of England in 2008, despite his issues against the short-ball. The real issue was that his test career effectively ended in 2008 due to injury, and he was never a very good ODI batsman to begin with, due to the one-dimensionality of his attacking game (step 1: open the hip; step 2: slog). Asides from a purple-patch in 2007/08, Oram always averaged low 20's in ODI's. His bowling was the real reason why he was in the ODI side so when he effectively became an ODI specialist in 2009-onwards, it was only natural that his batting would fall away.

    It may well be true that Oram lost his enthusiasm for cricket at a relatively young age. I think the consistent criticism that he copped from the public for being a soft-cock who couldn't stay on the paddock probably hurt his feelings quite a lot, and made him grow indifferent to the game quite early.
    Last edited by Bahnz; 15-07-2014 at 07:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    I can think of a list of Sydney Grade posters who would contribute a better average post than Bahnz.
    Maow like no one can hear you maowing.

  3. #3
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    ksfls;fsl;lsFJg/s
    Posts
    28,228
    Quote Originally Posted by Bahnz View Post
    Lolwat.

    Oram was never any more than a 125-130 plodder. His height and accuracy made him a very handy 5th bowler - indeed by the closing stages of his test career he was probably close to being New Zealand's best seamer - but he was never anything more than a medium pacer. He actually got progressively faster as his batting declined in the later stages of his career, and he was still never capable of anything more than 135.
    Nah, I remember watching him bowl and the reactionary talk at the time that he could open the bowling because he gained a yard. Found these from 2004 to support I wasn't going mad about speed gain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    If you are only judging him on the England test series, it is very unfair, especially if you are referring only to the last test!

    He was injurred in that last test, and wasnt supposed to bowl, except he did out of neccessity. He is quite capable over getting up to the 135-140 range consistantly when hes fully fit.
    Quote Originally Posted by sportychic33 View Post
    Being a Jacob Oram fan for a couple of years now i don't think it is worth it asking him to bowl faster. Anyway when he is fully fit he can get up to the high 130's and i have seen him bowl faster than tuffey. If we ask him to consistently bowl fast i think that he will more injuries and it wouldn't be worth it.
    The thread I got these from (linked at the bottom) was really interesting for a few pages before Richard derailed it. Top Cat and a few others talked about what it's like to face various paces of bowling.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 15-07-2014 at 07:57 PM.

  4. #4
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    ksfls;fsl;lsFJg/s
    Posts
    28,228
    btw some of his test innings have disappeared from youtube


  5. #5
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    On top of a pile of money, surrounded by many beautiful women
    Posts
    7,674
    I can't claim to have seen every ball that he's ever bowled, but I can never remember Oram bowling any quicker than 135-max in tests, and he was usually in the 125-130 range. Maybe he could hit high 130's occasionally in ODI's, but not in test cricket. I remember on a different cricket forum after the 2004 tour of England, a few people having a discussion about Oram v Flintoff and noting that Oram's bowling being permanently locked at 80mph being a critical difference between the two of them. Unfortunately there's basically no footage of Oram's early bowling on youtube, so it's hard to prove it one way or the other.

  6. #6
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    ksfls;fsl;lsFJg/s
    Posts
    28,228
    England's radars are ****s. Southee and Boult barely clocked above 80 all tour. Conspiracy.

    Back to big Jake, is there an NZ side in history he wouldn't make? We were so damn lucky to have an allrounder like him come along straight after Cairns, especially since Cairns is the kind of cricketer New Zealand would struggle to replace 9 times out of 10.
    Last edited by Flem274*; 15-07-2014 at 08:29 PM.

  7. #7
    Hall of Fame Member NZTailender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
    Posts
    19,468
    With Neesham's rise into the Test team, he's made me think back to Oram. Strikes me as a similar player in the sense of team role, but perhaps not in techniques (tbf, I'm not saying they're completely different, I just don't know enough to compare them accurately bowling wise or batting wise). Hopefully Neesham will have the career Oram never really had. It struck me though as Oram seemed always as a batting all-rounder whereas in reality perhaps he was the opposite (certainly in the latter part of his career, batting at 8 IIRC). I also remember he was heavily maligned by many for his sub-standard ODI batting average until the tri-series against England and Aus where he bludgeoned his average past 20 and almost won us this high-scoring game. Achieved legend-in-NZ-terms status in that series, for mine.
    President of SKAS - Kat is King | Proud member of CVAAS - One of the best | LRPLTAS - Rosco rocks!
    The NZTailender Supporting XI:
    H Rutherford, N Broom, Craig Cachopa, M Bracewell, D Brownlie, BJ Watling, D de Boorder+, I Sodhi, B Wheeler, H Bennett, A Milne
    Go Tigers!
    R.I.P. Fardin & Craig

  8. #8
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    On top of a pile of money, surrounded by many beautiful women
    Posts
    7,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    England's radars are ****s. Southee and Boult barely clocked above 80 all tour. Conspiracy.

    Back to big Jake, is there an NZ side in history he wouldn't make? We were so damn lucky to have an allrounder like him come along straight after Cairns, especially since Cairns is the kind of cricketer New Zealand would struggle to replace 9 times out of 10.
    Oram's average hovered around 40 for almost his entire career up until his last couple of test, when Murali took a big steaming dump on it. He'd make almost any New Zealand team in history as a batsman alone.
    Last edited by Bahnz; 15-07-2014 at 08:44 PM.
    Prince EWS likes this.

  9. #9
    Hall of Fame Member _Ed_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Auckland, Aotearoa
    Posts
    19,856
    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    he bludgeoned his average past 20 and almost won us this high-scoring game. Achieved legend-in-NZ-terms status in that series, for mine.
    Remember staying up to the end of that game. Awesome innings.

  10. #10
    Hall of Fame Member NZTailender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
    Posts
    19,468
    Quote Originally Posted by _Ed_ View Post
    Remember staying up to the end of that game. Awesome innings.
    Was one of those fairly memorable series which is kinda rare for ODIs. Astle's retirement, Vincent's recall and eery calmness and consistency opening, Big Jake and actually having Bond and Franklin bowl in tandem (and Jimmy not sucking hard iirc).

  11. #11
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Moving to Somalia
    Posts
    43,384
    Quote Originally Posted by NZTailender View Post
    With Neesham's rise into the Test team, he's made me think back to Oram. Strikes me as a similar player in the sense of team role, but perhaps not in techniques (tbf, I'm not saying they're completely different, I just don't know enough to compare them accurately bowling wise or batting wise). Hopefully Neesham will have the career Oram never really had. It struck me though as Oram seemed always as a batting all-rounder whereas in reality perhaps he was the opposite (certainly in the latter part of his career, batting at 8 IIRC). I also remember he was heavily maligned by many for his sub-standard ODI batting average until the tri-series against England and Aus where he bludgeoned his average past 20 and almost won us this high-scoring game. Achieved legend-in-NZ-terms status in that series, for mine.
    Oram took up bowling late in life and never really took it all that seriously; it was a means to an end to keep him in the team. In Test cricket he was certainly always a batting allrounder -- I think his bowling average was kept artificially low for a while early on because he played on pitches tailor made for him against India -- but in ODI cricket it was his bowling that really earned him selection.
    ~ Cribbage

    Quote Originally Posted by Riggins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    Sanga has done well but Murali has done better. In my opinion, Murali is simply the best off spinner in history of cricket and I can't make that kind of statement for Sanga.
    Sanga isn't the best off spinner in the history of cricket? News to me.

  12. #12
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,587
    Excellently written essay in Flem's usual style - a paradoxical mix of bile and compassion at the same. A clever paragraph in point;

    He retired with the same number of test hundreds as Chris Cairns and Andrew Flintoff from half the matches. He retired as the ex-football goalie who was brilliant in the field, a team man who joked about cutting his fingers off to make the world cup and always conducted himself with grace in the media despite being called soft and weak every five minutes by fat 40 year old men from their armchairs. But he also faded into a limited overs bits and pieces player who didn't really want to be there, and that makes Phlegm sad. If he had played for a team that wasn't the test cricket fashion equivalent of a brown paper bag people would actually care about him.

  13. #13
    JJD Heads Athlai's Avatar
    Duck Hunt Champion! Plops Champion!
    Tournaments Won: 2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    ksfls;fsl:lsFJg/s
    Posts
    27,475
    Jacob Oram was a poor Test batsman who started his career in excellent form. He was a decent containing bowler but was never a genuine wicket taker.

    Gets about the credit he deserves, a decent contributer for NZ but never a world beater.
    Direbirds FTW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Wellington will win the whole thing next year. Mark my words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    I'll offer up my avatar to Athlai forever if Wellington wins the Champions League.
    President of T.I.T.S
    Tamim Is Talented Society

  14. #14
    Cricketer Of The Year Bahnz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    On top of a pile of money, surrounded by many beautiful women
    Posts
    7,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jacob Oram was a poor Test batsman who started his career in excellent form. He was a decent containing bowler but was never a genuine wicket taker.

    Gets about the credit he deserves, a decent contributer for NZ but never a world beater.
    I really don't see how a poor test batsman could get big runs against:

    Pakistan with Shoaib (2003)
    South Africa with Ntini and Pollock (2004)
    Australia with McGrath and Warne (2005)
    South Africa with Steyn, Pollock and Ntini (2006)
    England with Anderson and Broad (2008)

    Admittedly, his footwork wasn't exceptional, but then again neither is Jesse's.In terms of producing the goods against quality opposition, Oram's achievements as a batsman probably outshadow those of any of the current side save Taylor.

    Ack, it still bugs me to think that with a bit more luck and a bit of man management, we could've had the following team team in the 08-10 period:

    Some, Body, Fleming, Ryder, Taylor, Oram, McCullum, Vettori Franklin, O'Brien, Bond

    With Adams, Styris and Martin on the sidelines to cover injury. Hell, maybe Styris could've tried his hand as an opener. He did bat at number 3 for a while, and we all know that there's no difference between batting at number 3 and opening.
    Last edited by Bahnz; 15-07-2014 at 10:14 PM.
    Days of Grace likes this.

  15. #15
    Hall of Fame Member NZTailender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
    Posts
    19,468
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Oram took up bowling late in life and never really took it all that seriously; it was a means to an end to keep him in the team. In Test cricket he was certainly always a batting allrounder -- I think his bowling average was kept artificially low for a while early on because he played on pitches tailor made for him against India -- but in ODI cricket it was his bowling that really earned him selection.
    I mostly remember Oram from ODIs, in terms of watching live, so that's probably influenced my opinion on him as a whole, but he was a superb ODI bowler for a period, for the apparent simpleness of what he was bowling.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Oram to retire
    By NZ Guy in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 15-10-2009, 05:51 PM
  2. On Jacob Oram..
    By Flem274* in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 14-11-2008, 05:33 PM
  3. Jacob Oram's injuries continue
    By James in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 20-07-2006, 04:05 AM
  4. Jacob Oram - more speed please?
    By Mingster in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 174
    Last Post: 08-07-2004, 10:18 AM
  5. oram
    By sasnoz in forum Cricket Chat
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 03-01-2003, 11:10 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •