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View Poll Results: Best 2nd ATG XI side?

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  • South Africa

    0 0%
  • West Indies

    7 33.33%
  • Australia

    10 47.62%
  • Pakistan

    0 0%
  • England

    4 19.05%
  • India

    0 0%
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Thread: Which country has the best 2nd ATG XI side?

  1. #61
    International 12th Man Tangles's Avatar
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    Hard to judge those before my time but of those I have seen Taylor wasn't good enough and Hayden didn't do it everywhere he played. Langer is just plain overrated IMO. Of the 3 Hayden was the best. Taylor would open with him in a best Oz 11 of the last 25 years.

  2. #62
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    I don't think Langer is overrated. If anything he is a bit underrated. After he re-invented himself as an opener, his average was around 50. He became a real aggressor against pace bowling and loved to take it up to the opposition quicks.

    Taylor was good and dependable. Bit of an old school opener, but had all the shots required and dealt with some pretty handy pace attacks. Add the fact that he was a brilliant slipper and excellent captain and he's a great cricketer who I'd rather have on my side than not.
    Last edited by Red Hill; 11-09-2013 at 03:38 AM.
    kyear2 likes this.

  3. #63
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Actually, how many times did Langer get sconned during his career? From memory it was quite a lot. Here he is playing Ian Bishop, then Ntini with his cranium;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7PgPUSDdJU

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqu79CaqbEo

    However, I'd still feel OK about having Langer in my ATG team. Here is his best innings - taking Curtly Ambrose to the cleaners;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HYodF-l-0g
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - David Gower - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  4. #64
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    And here is a Justin Langer cover-drive montage in case we forget how good he was at throwing his bat at anything over-pitched;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q09tRY_QZfw


  5. #65
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Absolutely kidding yourself if you think Langer was as good as the other blokes you mentioned IMO.
    Tangles likes this.
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  6. #66
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    Maybe we should just open with Border and Waugh (Steve) for the 1st XI :P Could be interesting. They would never get out.
    Steve Waugh would've been a dire opener IMO.

  7. #67
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Absolutely kidding yourself if you think Langer was as good as the other blokes you mentioned IMO.
    As far as lefties are concerned - Langer: better than Morris, about on a par with Taylor and Lawry, and slightly behind Hayden.

    Incidently, here is Jim Maxwell's (long standing ABC cricket commentator) ATG team;

    Hayden, Langer, Bradman, Ponting, G.Chappell, Miller, Gilchrist, Warne, Lillee, McGrath, O'Reilly

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine...site_area=1929
    Last edited by watson; 11-09-2013 at 05:09 AM.

  8. #68
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    Regardless of how you rank them, his latter day cover drive was beautiful.



  9. #69
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    Regardless of how you rank them, his latter day cover drive was beautiful.


    Chameleon! But better than Morris is a tall claim.
    ~ Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference ~

  10. #70
    The artist formerly known as Monk Red Hill's Avatar
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    With Australia's openers, I'd take any of Trumper, Morris, Taylor, Langer, Hayden (gulp), Simpson, Lawry happily. Can mount claims for others such as Woodful, Barnes, Ponsford and Slater as well.

    As someone said previously, there really isn't a stand out pair or trio. Like Hutton, Hobbs and Sutcliffe.

  11. #71
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    Come now, you must admit that having the requisite skill and technique is not all that we look for here. You have to have delivered on the same, and our expectations are quite high. In that sense, if Faulkner was so capable, then it is a crime that his stats are what they are. I can only conclude that he under-performed.

    Again, with Tayfield in the side, and Kallis as the 5th bowler already, where is the value in having Faulkner over Taylor at 6?
    With Kallis in the team there is no need for another all rounder, also in this team there is no established No. 3. Faulkner was pne of those all rounders who seems to have scored runs in flat condition while failing with the ball and bowling well in helpful conditions but failing with the bat. There wasn't that much consistency. A better for me S.A XI would include an established No. 3 in Amla and would be

    Barry Richards ^
    Graeme Smith *^
    Hashim Amla
    Graeme Pollock
    Jacques Kallis (5)^
    Dudley Nourse
    Mike Procter (3)
    John Waite +
    Hugh Tayfield (4)
    Dake Steyn (1)
    Allan Donald (2)

    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    When you look at peoples' ATG Australian XIs there seems to be consistent disagreement as to who should open the batting. With England it's no problem, just throw in Hobbs and Hutton (or Sutcliffe if so inclined) and away you go. However, in more than a 100 years Australia does not have 2-3 stand out openers who pick themselves, and who I feel really comfortable with. Simpson. Lawry, Morris, Trumper, Hayden, Taylor, and Langer all bother me for some niggling reason that I don't understand.
    Trumper was not a success as an opener and was actually better in the middle order, Hayden prospered after the best bowlers retired, Simpson was seen as a bit gimpy vs genuine pace, Lawry supposedly batted too slowly, Morris flourished with Bradman protecting him at 3 and in the initial post WW2 series when the English bolwing was at it's weakest and progesssively struggled as the attacks improved and Langer would have been killed in the pre helmet era. Most often I go with Morris and Simpson but feel like we uder estimate Hayden as he could just have gotten better with age and experience.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  12. #72
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    W.I 2nd AT XI

    Desmond Haynes
    Roy Fredricks
    Rohan Kanhai ^
    Everton Weekes ^
    Frank Worrell *
    Clive Lloyd ^
    Jeffrey Dujon +
    Wes Hall
    Andy Roberts
    Colin Croft
    Lance Gibbs

    And no other team 2nd team beats that one. They would actually beat some of the first teams like India, New Zealnd and Sri Lanka in my opnion.

  13. #73
    International Regular harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    With Kallis in the team there is no need for another all rounder, also in this team there is no established No. 3. Faulkner was pne of those all rounders who seems to have scored runs in flat condition while failing with the ball and bowling well in helpful conditions but failing with the bat. There wasn't that much consistency. A better for me S.A XI would include an established No. 3 in Amla and would be

    Barry Richards ^
    Graeme Smith *^
    Hashim Amla
    Graeme Pollock
    Jacques Kallis (5)^
    Dudley Nourse
    Mike Procter (3)
    John Waite +
    Hugh Tayfield (4)
    Dale Steyn (1)
    Allan Donald (2)

    Trumper was not a success as an opener and was actually better in the middle order, Hayden prospered after the best bowlers retired, Simpson was seen as a bit gimpy vs genuine pace, Lawry supposedly batted too slowly, Morris flourished with Bradman protecting him at 3 and in the initial post WW2 series when the English bowling was at it's weakest and progressively struggled as the attacks improved and Langer would have been killed in the pre helmet era. Most often I go with Morris and Simpson but feel like we under estimate Hayden as he could just have gotten better with age and experience.
    How is Kallis not an established number 3? He's played 49 tests in that position. But Amla would be a worthy addition to the side, although I prefer Taylor for now.

    I prefer Trumper and Simpson, because Morris was too inconsistent, especially against good attacks; because Simpson is better than Lawry, and because Trumper shades it to Hayden by a whisker because of Barnes rating him the best bat in the world. Close between Hayden and Simpson. It just doesn't feel right to include Langer, the pre-helmet era openers would look down upon him too much, not cool..

    Quote Originally Posted by kyear2 View Post
    W.I 2nd AT XI

    Desmond Haynes
    Roy Fredricks
    Rohan Kanhai ^
    Everton Weekes ^
    Frank Worrell *
    Clive Lloyd ^
    Jeffrey Dujon +
    Wes Hall
    Andy Roberts
    Colin Croft
    Lance Gibbs

    And no other team 2nd team beats that one. They would actually beat some of the first teams like India, New Zealnd and Sri Lanka in my opnion.
    Australia are as good, if not better. They just lack a third pacer but Spofforth was no mug with the ball, plus they have 3 extra bowling options.

    Hayden | Morris | Harvey | McCabe | Border | Waugh | Healy | Davidson | Lindwall | Grimmett | Spofforth

    Not bad, eh?

  14. #74
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.skm View Post
    How is Kallis not an established number 3? He's played 49 tests in that position. But Amla would be a worthy addition to the side, although I prefer Taylor for now.

    I prefer Trumper and Simpson, because Morris was too inconsistent, especially against good attacks; because Simpson is better than Lawry, and because Trumper shades it to Hayden by a whisker because of Barnes rating him the best bat in the world. Close between Hayden and Simpson. It just doesn't feel right to include Langer, the pre-helmet era openers would look down upon him too much, not cool..

    Australia are as good, if not better. They just lack a third pacer but Spofforth was no mug with the ball, plus they have 3 extra bowling options.

    Hayden | Morris | Harvey | McCabe | Border | Waugh | Healy | Davidson | Lindwall | Grimmett | Spofforth

    Not bad, eh?
    Border and Morris makes my first Aussie team so my Aussie second team would be

    Hayden | Trumper | Harvey | McCabe | Waugh | Miller | Healy | Lindwall | McDermott | O'Reilly | Grimmett |

    Fredricks | Haynes | Kanhai | Weekes | Worrell | Lloyd | Dujon | Hall | Roberts | Croft | Gibbs |

    And yes that time would give the W.I a great match and also be able to best the 1st teams from India, New Zealand and Sri Lanka.

    For me though the W.I batting just looks stronger and so does the pace attack, the Aussies have the advantage in the spin department.
    Last edited by kyear2; 22-09-2013 at 05:47 PM.

  15. #75
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Faulkner was pne of those all rounders who seems to have scored runs in flat condition while failing with the ball and bowling well in helpful conditions but failing with the bat.
    I haven't heard this summation re Faulkner before kyear. Not saying that it can't be true - but evidence?

    Also, since Kallis (like Sobers) would make any ATG team on his batting skills alone so it seems OK to play Faulkner in the ATG South African team. Sure the No.6 batting position is weakened a little, but the side gains a brilliant leg-spinner who can bowl in tandem with Tayfield when the conditions suit (or don't for that matter). Also, in a First XI, Waite and Procter follow immediately after in the batting order, so there's so desperate reliance on Faulkner to score runs.
    Last edited by watson; 22-09-2013 at 06:35 PM.

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