bagapath
International Captain
sure
3 guys have 5 plus five fers and 10 centuries
6 guys have 10 plus five fers and 5 centuries
One guy is on both lists. No one except him has 10 centuries and 10 five fers. very big deal in my opinion...
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
3 guys have 5 plus five fers and 10 centuries
6 guys have 10 plus five fers and 5 centuries
One guy is on both lists. No one except him has 10 centuries and 10 five fers. very big deal in my opinion...
Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Gavaskar, Barry.
Who would you feel most confident would handle modern bowling? Hobbs and Sutcliffe are ancients, and unproven against good quicks (?), and Barry is unproven in tests. Sunny is proven, but with a limited ceiling.
Which one is the best bet?
Who would you feel most confident would handle modern bowling? Hobbs and Sutcliffe are ancients, and unproven against good quicks (?), and Barry is unproven in tests. Sunny is proven, but with a limited ceiling.
Which one is the best bet?
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Only when compared to someone like Lara.
Limited compared to Hobbs, probably the 2nd greatest bat of the century. Or what many people regard Barry's talent as. Or Sutcliffes test average, which sunny fell notably short of.
bagapath
International Captain
Hobbs
Gavaskar
Sutcliffe in that order
Barry was a first class cricketer. Bunching him with the other three would be an insult to such accomplished test cricketers.
bagapath
International Captain
Gavaskar played 125 tests over 16 years all around the globe. Scored 10000 runs and 34 centuries. Barry played first class cricket and one test series. Its really ridiculous to even speak of them in the same breath. .
trundler
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Gavaskar probably had the hardest job of the 4 though. Has to be in the same league as Hobbs and Hutton as all 3 held the aggregate records at the end of their careers thus demonstrating excellent longevity, were excellent technicians and could bat days. Don't think Gavaskar had a low ceiling at all. If anything he was like Hutton in that he was a fluent stroke maker who could do absolutely everything but just preferred batting defensively.
Pap Finn Keighl
International Debutant
Very big deal, yes.. But not big enough to certify Botham as undisputed number 1 AR since sobers.
Pap Finn Keighl
International Debutant
Gavaskar
Hutton
Hobbs
Barry
Trumper
Sutcliffe
In this order.
Gavaskar is my greatest batsman after Bradman. He was an opener for a weak team, in an era of great fast bowlers.
Coronis
Cricketer Of The Year
I am surprised.
I'm not asking who the most accomplished cricketer was or who had the greatest career. Hobbs wins by miles.
But he didn't play on modern pitches, current rules, against quality pace attacks etc.
Most of Barrys career was 1st class (plus a bit of test and WSC). But he did everything Hobbs didnt. He succeeded against all the worlds best quicks, and there were many in his career. He did it over a large sample in all the countries that were toughest to open in, while there effectively wasn't one in Hobbs's time. And most people rate him on ability not accomplishments.
Sutcliffe averaged over 60. The gap between him and sunny is significant. Unless there were some serious holes in their record, an opener with his average playing today would walk into most ATG sides. With Sunny's average, most people would barely give them a look. But it's hard to make a case that Sutcliffe is better than Hobbs. You could make an argument for Barry before Sunny by extension.
I'm only really defending Barry in particular because you are attacking him. Picking a FC player is an issue. I only consider him because I don't like the other choices.
Pap Finn Keighl
International Debutant
Gavaskar
ATG Retiring performances in all 3 formats. WAG..!
Toughest 96 runs in Test cricket history against PAK
Record Breaking Century against NZ in a WC match. (2nd last Match)
A Huge FC century against the bowling attack of Hadlee-Marshall-Rice
ATG Retiring performances in all 3 formats. WAG..!
Toughest 96 runs in Test cricket history against PAK
Record Breaking Century against NZ in a WC match. (2nd last Match)
A Huge FC century against the bowling attack of Hadlee-Marshall-Rice
srbhkshk
International Captain
Sunny is really the only answer here, the others are too far from the modern era. He averaged pretty good against WI - which was the best attack in the world by some distance so not sure why you would say he has a low ceiling.
OverratedSanity
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Yeah whether he's better than Hobbs/Sutcliffe is up for debate but he's logically more likely to succeed against modern bowling. Pace bowling's quality has fluctuated since the 70s but the general style of pace bowling hasnt changed much, unlike compared to back in the early 1900s.
bagapath
International Captain
who said that?
bagapath
International Captain
Nope. Barry Richards doesn't belong here. Just 4 tests. It means nothing.
In his first four tests, Gavaskar scored 700 plus runs. Doesn't mean anything. Barry doesn't belong in this discussion at all.
Why doesn't he belong there within the bounds of this conversation? I've made an argument that Barry is more likely to succeed than Hobbs. You could make an argument that Sutcliffe would be more likely to succeed than Hobbs based on him being a more modern batsman and averaging more. I've made an argument for Sutcliffe above Gavaskar. So there is an argument for Barry above Sunny without actually comparing them.
Which one(s) of these arguments do you take issue with? They aren't watertight by any means- every one of them could be wrong for all I know. But you must take serious exception to at least one of them before comparing Barry and sunny even becomes relevant.
trundler
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Sutcliffe was far too reliant on pad play. Think he would find it harder because of the rule change. I'd put Hobbs ahead of him. So Hobbs > Sutcliffe. Hutton and Gavaskar have already proven their worth extensively. Don't think they'd have any trouble at all with modern bowling unless we're talking ODIs. Barry Richards's FC stats under sell him because he didn't have the motivation of tests and only really tried his best when he had a challenge. He did fantastically in List As too. So I'd go Sunny, Richards, Hutton, Hobbs, Sutcliffe.
Hutton is a lock for me
Sutcliffe probably has the weakest argument, for a number of reasons.
Barry's FC numbers may have suffered a bit from the motivation issue, but he still has possibly the best FC record of the openers. Nobody has his completeness of record. AUS, England and RSA, top quicks, and a better average than most.
Sunny would canter home in a comparison with Barry for me if none of the others guys existed because of the proven factor. But it feels wrong to pick a guy so far behind the best openers. Kinda makes me want to role the dice with Barry, who had a shot at matching the best.
Sutcliffe probably has the weakest argument, for a number of reasons.
Barry's FC numbers may have suffered a bit from the motivation issue, but he still has possibly the best FC record of the openers. Nobody has his completeness of record. AUS, England and RSA, top quicks, and a better average than most.
Sunny would canter home in a comparison with Barry for me if none of the others guys existed because of the proven factor. But it feels wrong to pick a guy so far behind the best openers. Kinda makes me want to role the dice with Barry, who had a shot at matching the best.