England Squads

[chris.hinton]

It is rather **** on Kirkely and Bicknell that they have been treated like this

 

[Bazza]

Interestign everyone goes on about Bevan's much discussed weakness against bouncers, yet he hasn't suffered for them being introduced in one day cricket, and his FC average of 56 suggests he can't be that bad.

I think he's been unlucky and would have played alot of test cricket if Australia weren't so strong these last 10 years.

On a side note - I never knew Bevan once took 4-31 and 6-82 in a test match against West Indies!! He also got 85*.

Whatever happened to that player? The potential all rounder Australia never found? Admittedly most of those wickets were taileneders but he did get Campbell, Chanderpaul and Adams, and on paper outbowled Warney.

Anyway, bit of a pointless debate because I don't think Bevan will ever play test cricket again.

On the subject of England squads, Gough has certainly been making headlines with his outburst!

AndI thought it was good to see Blackwell play that innings, although he's probably only a one day player (similar to a Symonds?).

 

[Craig]

Hold it, Kirtly in the ODI squad yet he has an econ of 5.50 in which is not good enough. So why pick him?

This will be the next big test for Flintoff in Sri Lanka and to a lesser extent in the Carribbean to continue to preform, he did in this series, so he must continue it.

If he fails against Murali and Vaas, dont say I didnt warn you and dont give me any bull**** excuses if he fails with the bat.

 

[marc71178]

It is rather **** on Kirkely and Bicknell that they have been treated like this

I disagree.

They are not needed in the conditions we will experience over there, so it'd be unfair to take them and have them away from their families for an extended period.

 

[marc71178]

Interestign everyone goes on about Bevan's much discussed weakness against bouncers, yet he hasn't suffered for them being introduced in one day cricket, and his FC average of 56 suggests he can't be that bad.

Sounds like Graeme Hick - similar average in FC cricket, but can't play that well against the high class pace in Test Cricket.

AndI thought it was good to see Blackwell play that innings, although he's probably only a one day player (similar to a Symonds?).

I'd say he's definitely only an ODI player. His batting is far too inconsistent in Four Day Cricket to get him a spot, and his bowling isn't up to a standard which would get him in the side either.

 

[marc71178]

If he fails against Murali and Vaas, dont say I didnt warn you and dont give me any bull**** excuses if he fails with the bat.

What do you have against Flintoff Craig?

Even when he performs really well, you have to have a go at him and predict failure.

I expect he may struggle against Murali, but he certainly won't be alone in that respect.

Vaas I cannot really see causing him that many problems as he is quite comfortable against seam bowling, and once he gets himself in tends to be able to bat well against them.

 

[Rik]

I disagree.

They are not needed in the conditions we will experience over there, so it'd be unfair to take them and have them away from their families for an extended period.

Well, Kirtley was a success in the 2 Tests he played this summer and the conditions would have suited him more than they would suit Harmison. I'm not going to go through all the selections, I just can't be bothered, but all I can say is the England Selectors have once again proven themselves to be totally clueless, seriously, how can you explain Clarke in either squad let alone both? What about Strauss in the OD side? McGrath at all? Pointless.

I thought Rod Marsh was supposed to improve this...

Oh and as for the Kabir arguement, I'd liken his debut to that of Harmison's, didn't bowl amazingly but took wickets, and if you forget, that's what we need.

 

[Rik]

Sounds like Graeme Hick - similar average in FC cricket, but can't play that well against the high class pace in Test Cricket.

...with one chance and no recalls...

 

[Rik]

Gough left out of the OD squad and Kirtley in his place? I think they have forgotten that in Gough's last ODI he happened to take the man of the match award and go for just over a run an over. But then, this is the England selectors...

 

[Fred Jr]

I think Ian Blackwell in the long term is the man to give the England team the same kind of balance that teams like South Africa have - maybe the team would need some tweaking on asian spinning wickets, but my first choice XI in home tests would be something like this, given that spinners have a history of not taking many wickets in English conditions, Blackwell I believe would be just as effective as Ashley Giles is (look how ineffective Kumble and Harbhajan were last year at times when the wickets didn't suit them), and that Michael Vaughan is, I believe, very under-rated as a bowler:

Trescothick
Vaughan
Butcher
Hussain
Thorpe
Flintoff
Blackwell
Read
Anderson
Harmison
Hoggard


Just imagine Freddie and Blackie going on a middle-order assault -now that's crowd pleasing cricket! Read, I think, would be batting one place too high at 7 - for a man with a FC average of what, 27ish? Coupled with his inexperience I believe he would not have the nous to keep the tail going like Fred can, whereas Blackie plays the same game as Fred, and on his day (ie Wednesday) is every bit as destructive as him. Although i do concede that Derbyshire are a bit crap. (No offence, like) Anderson, Hoggard, and Harmison (although i think the jury is still out on him, I would much prefer to see Kabir Ali in an England shirt, what's the point in picking Harmison, the bowler who doesn't take wickets? Harmie's best FC figures are 6-for, Kabir has two 8-fors this year alone, he is simply a better wicket-taking bowler than Harmison in my view. I suppose Harmison could be called the Emile Heskey of the England cricket team - everyone knows he is actually quite good, but no-one seems to know why we all think it, as he shows very little evidence of it, only the merest glimpses.) are the future of the England attack, and the top order is solid as a rock, which allows us to have a 9, 10, Jack whose places in the order are higher than their batting averages, apart from the master of the not-out, Jimmy A. Anyway, thatll all never happen so i'll shut up now.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Imagine Freddie and Blackie going on a middle-order assault -now that's crowd pleasing cricket! Read, I think, would be batting one place too high at 7 - for a man with a FC average of what, 27ish? Coupled with his inexperience I believe he would not have the nous to keep the tail going like Fred can, whereas Blackie plays the same game as Fred, and on his day (ie Wednesday) is every bit as destructive as him. Although i do concede that Derbyshire are a bit crap.

The problem with Blackers is that his days don't come around that often and he can even more easily do an Ajit (ie today). I almost feel that Giles would consistently get more in Tests. Read has more experience, nous and batting talent than you're giving the lad credit for IMO.

Anderson, Hoggard, and Harmison (although i think the jury is still out on him, I would much prefer to see Kabir Ali in an England shirt, what's the point in picking Harmison, the bowler who doesn't take wickets? Harmie's best FC figures are 6-for, Kabir has two 8-fors this year alone, he is simply a better wicket-taking bowler than Harmison in my view.

I shared your opinion on Kabir until I actually saw the guy bowl, and from Vaughan's reluctance to give him the ball again I think he thought the same as I did.

 

[chris.hinton]

I disagree.

They are not needed in the conditions we will experience over there, so it'd be unfair to take them and have them away from their families for an extended period.

True but if you bowl well you deserve to be in the test side

 

[Rik]

I shared your opinion on Kabir until I actually saw the guy bowl, and from Vaughan's reluctance to give him the ball again I think he thought the same as I did.

I saw him bowl in a couple of OD matches for Worcestershire and he certainly bowled a lot faster and much better than he did on his debut, but then Simon Jones and Harmison both had nervy debuts, you can't say someone isn't good enough after one Test, especially when he actually took wickets and bowled an unplayable ball every so often.

 

[marc71178]

...with one chance and no recalls...

He had the problem of being Australian in an era of 2 Waughs, Ponting, Martyn etc.

Not someone there to drop to give him another go!

 

[Rik]

He had the problem of being Australian in an era of 2 Waughs, Ponting, Martyn etc.

Not someone there to drop to give him another go!

I would have given him a go instead of Martyn, or Ponting who was very lucky he wasn't "Bevaned" after a string of inconsistant performances.

 

[marc71178]

Well, Kirtley was a success in the 2 Tests he played this summer and the conditions would have suited him more than they would suit Harmison.

I must admit that despite my backing of him, I'd have given Harmison a break for the Asian tours, but they want him to go, and they've been alright with him so far...

I also agree on Clarke - cannot work that out, unless they're playing him at number 6 or 7, but even then Collingwood should play.

I feel we must play 4 bowlers plus Flintoff, which means 5 top order batsmen, yet we've taken 7 on tour?!

 

[marc71178]

True but if you bowl well you deserve to be in the test side

So why are you complaining about their omission then?

Ali did not bowl well, and didn't have the support of his captain.

Bicknell played well at the Oval, but not at Headingley, and the selectors knew that Hoggard had performed well in Asia before.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Yes, but you're only allowed eleven players on a team at once

 

[Rik]

Ali did not bowl well, and didn't have the support of his captain

If your captain hasn't got faith in you then it's hard to perform, I'm sure we've all experianced that. As for Vaughan, he should have put more trust in Ali, and when you've just come into the job the last thing you want to do is start messing around potential England bowlers, one bad experiance can have a permenent effect. Ali has all the right ingredients to be a very good bowler at International level, ie the ability to bowl unplayable deliveries and takes wickets even when he's off-colour. I'd blame Vaughan as much as anyone, so, he's inexperianced, but if he's not up to it he shouldn't be captain...to be fair he still hasn't shown anything as captain yet other than it affects his batting.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If your captain hasn't got faith in you then it's hard to perform, I'm sure we've all experianced that. As for Vaughan, he should have put more trust in Ali, and when you've just come into the job the last thing you want to do is start messing around potential England bowlers, one bad experiance can have a permenent effect. Ali has all the right ingredients to be a very good bowler at International level, ie the ability to bowl unplayable deliveries and takes wickets even when he's off-colour. I'd blame Vaughan as much as anyone, so, he's inexperianced, but if he's not up to it he shouldn't be captain...to be fair he still hasn't shown anything as captain yet other than it affects his batting.

I agree with this. I remember when Jerome Taylor debuted against Sri Lanka this year. He looked nervous and his inexperience definitely showed, but Lara kept faith in him and didn't just ban him to fine leg or the like. As such, Taylor continued to run in and bowl with purpose, albeit without success.