Tendulkar declines captaincy

[honestbharani]

So wait, first you were accusing Tendulkar of trying to get Dravid out of captaincy so he could take over, and now you're criticising him for not taking the captaincy. What the?

Firstly, your views that Tendulkar is trying to kick Dravid out has now been made to look ridiculous, initially with his decline of captaincy, and secondly with the rumours that he didn't take the captaincy because of the selectors' treatment of Dravid. Maybe Sachin ain't so evil afterall?

Regarding the double standards claim, I disagree. Sachin WAS NOT captain, unlike Dravid. Sachin has been captain twice, there is seriously no reason at all for him to be captain again. None whatsoever. Whereas Dravid's quitting of captaincy couldn't have come at a more inappropriate time to be honest. It just complicated everything. If anything, Sachin's decision to not take captaincy has done the reverse, its made things very simple. Dhoni as captain.

And will people stop fearing Australia FFS? They're a brilliant team, and an Australian tour is tough, but Dhoni isn't a frickin' kid. He's already shown he is a very capable captain, and there is ABSOLUTELY no point in naming another captain (eg. Kumble or Laxman) whilst having former captains (Tendulkar, Ganguly, Dravid) and the future captain (Dhoni) already in the team.

And naming Ganguly captain would be an even bigger distraction. Can you imagine all the questions that he'd receive in the media sessions in Australia? "How does it feel to be back" "Should you have ever been removed" yadda yadda yadda. Not to mention all the possible Greg Chappell questions.

Dhoni as captain of India works.

Jeez man, ur exams not going ok or what? Why all the aggro?



first of all, you can see any number of posts I made on the issue when Dravid gave up captaincy. I NEVER said Sachin wanted to kick out Dravid so that he could become captain. I always maintained that certain things I did say was just speculation on my part and my view on that was/is that Sachin was disappointed that Dravid didn't speak up for him when Chappell said certain things about Sachin. That Chappell did say harsh stuff to Sachin in the dressing room, is for me, pretty certain, even though there is no real solid proof out there. So I felt that since then, Sachin and Rahul haven't been eye-to-eye and that because of that the team also didn't seem to back Rahul too much.

I felt Rahul was kind of alienated within the side what with Zaheer giving statements that openly makes the captain look extremely stupid. Also, the growing closeness between Sachin and Sourav was evident to everyone and I still don't think Sourav and Rahul are as chummy as they used to be in 2004 or so... So I thought that even though perhaps nothing was said or done openly, there was a quiet uneasiness in the dressing room and that Rahul was kinda being left out by the others. Again, all this is just speculation and perhaps everything was ok with the Indian side and maybe it was just Rahul's reticient nature that gave this impression. But my gut feeling is that it is not and that Rahul was in fact kinda alienated. I don't want to say who was at fault etc because I think to an extent I think everyone involved were at fault... So as I said I never said/thought Sachin wanted the captaincy. And I don't know when I said Sachin was evil. I happen to think that even Dravid did some things wrong at that stage... And I respect and admire Sachin as much as you do.


Second thing is, Sachin WAS the vice captain on the last tour. It is obvious that he was being thought of as successor once Dravid decided to step down. And once Dravid said he didn't want to be captain anymore, it was obvious to everyone that Sachin was one of the favorites to be test captain. And given the relative lack of options for captaincy at the moment, he would have been the easiest and safest choice for the selectors. I don't think it has made anything simple for the selectors simply because Dhoni is yet to prove himself to be better than the other contenders for his job in the side. Giving him the captaincy at this stage, even if it works out, would still be a huge risk and as such, a mistake. Unlike in ODIs, Dhoni's test skills are yet to be proven beyond question.



And yes, Sachin's decision is a little inappropriate because he has everything going for him at the moment. He is batting well, he has the respect of the team, the board and the selectors, and more than anything else, as he himself said, he is enjoying his cricket at the moment. If you cannot accept captaincy when you are feeling this good, I don't know when you can, tbh. Contrast that with Rahul. It was obvious that the pressure was too much for him, his team mates were openly defying him and his batting form had dipped alarmingly... Heck, these were the very same reasons why Sachin quit back in 2000, except that his batting form didn't dip alarmingly and instead of his team mates defying him, Sachin felt that the board, selectors and coach were defying him... I think Lara once said when he was handed the captaincy in similar situations for the Windies in 2003 that it would be "dereliction of duty" not to accept captaincy at that stage, even though he didn't really want it. I know we have Kumble and Dhoni and perhaps Sourav or Laxman who can be captain now, but it just won't be the same as having Sachin as captain and I am sure everyone knows that...


And yes, a tour to Australia is feared. It makes or breaks players and captains and not everyone can come through. I think Dhoni is a strong enough guy to come through this but that doesn't hide the fact that this is still a huge risk and a lot will depend on how much confidence the board and selectors place on Dhoni. Whether they give him the sort of team that he feels comfortable with and whether they give him enough voice in the selection process and whether they have the guts to follow their vision even if we do get thrashed in Australia, as seems likely. That is a lot of "if"s there.


Dhoni as captain of India MAY work. That is the whole point right now... Tendulkar or Dravid or Kumble as captain of India works, simply because they can command a place in the side and as such, questions won't be asked about their presence in the side. Plus, a keeper having to skipper in a test match will be mighty tough. Keepers make the best vice captains but they rarely make the best captains. I happen to think Dhoni is an exception, but it remains to be seen how he handles it all...

 

[honestbharani]

Ffs will all the speculation of a split in the team or seniors working together against others etc etc stop? Sooo annoying, and imo pretty much baseless.

It is speculation but I don't think it is completely baseless.

 

[Unattainableguy]

It may be because he doesn't do well in pressure situations. So if he's made the captain and can't lead from the front like Ponting or how Inzamam did, his flaws would be more apparent then as a captain.

 

[Dasa]

You're looking for problems/rifts/etc when they aren't there imo. And they are pretty much baseless when even you admit it's just speculation and gut feeling on your part.

Oh yeah, to this:

It may be because he doesn't do well in pressure situations. So if he's made the captain and can't lead from the front like Ponting or how Inzamam did, his flaws would be more apparent then as a captain.

 

[honestbharani]

You're looking for problems/rifts/etc when they aren't there imo. And they are pretty much baseless when even you admit it's just speculation and gut feeling on your part.

Oh yeah, to this:

Again, I am not sure about baseless.

I can almost swear that Sachin was not his usual self in the WC. It doesn't matter who is the captain, Sachin almost always chirps away the odd idea or two at least. And he never did that in our WC. It was obvious things were tense. As I said, it is probably just between Chappell and Sachin/Sourav but I am sure somewhere Rahul got mixed up as well. I am not saying Sachin or Sourav cold shouldered him or led a rebellion against him. They may have just been disappointed that their old mate didn't speak up for them against Chappell and so may have just been a little more subdued in their dealings with him than normal. As I said, I am not saying any of them committed any great crime, but the statements by Zaheer and juz the general feeling I got watching India (and I have basically watched everyone of their matches since the WC), was that things were not all smooth in that dressing room. Ravi Shastri even said something like his first job is to bring the side together and heal certain things when he became the interim manager.

 

[AKkAz]

Hope Ganguly is not assigned captain,.. Dhoni is not nearly as experienced enough to captain a leading test team..What say you to Sanjay's proposal of Kumble?? Sounds a bit ludacris tbh..

 

[Richard]

Oh yeah, to this:

It may be because he doesn't do well in pressure situations. So if he's made the captain and can't lead from the front like Ponting or how Inzamam did, his flaws would be more apparent then as a captain.

Beat me to it.

 

[Richard]

Australia target opposing captains. They destroyed Graeme Smith.

Not really. Smith's problems with the bat were more of his own making than Australia working him out - he did not fall constantly to one similar delivery, nor to an outstanding bowler (his biggest problems were with the worst bowler in the side, Brett Lee).

 

[Richard]

Other than the obvious "now we have 5 frickin' captains in an 11 man side" reason not to make Kumble captain, the fact that people thought he may be retiring after the England series, and he could honestly call it quits at any time, leaves me thinking its probably best to not give it to the great man.

Change of heart here. Dhoni as captain - works for me.

The main reason for not making Dhoni captain is not the "Australia is not the ideal start", it's the simple fact that there's no evidence Dhoni is a Test-class cricketer at present.

Kumble may not be ideal, but he's a better bet than anyone else IMO.

 

[Jono]

Jeez man, ur exams not going ok or what? Why all the aggro?



first of all, you can see any number of posts I made on the issue when Dravid gave up captaincy. I NEVER said Sachin wanted to kick out Dravid so that he could become captain. I always maintained that certain things I did say was just speculation on my part and my view on that was/is that Sachin was disappointed that Dravid didn't speak up for him when Chappell said certain things about Sachin. That Chappell did say harsh stuff to Sachin in the dressing room, is for me, pretty certain, even though there is no real solid proof out there. So I felt that since then, Sachin and Rahul haven't been eye-to-eye and that because of that the team also didn't seem to back Rahul too much.

I felt Rahul was kind of alienated within the side what with Zaheer giving statements that openly makes the captain look extremely stupid. Also, the growing closeness between Sachin and Sourav was evident to everyone and I still don't think Sourav and Rahul are as chummy as they used to be in 2004 or so... So I thought that even though perhaps nothing was said or done openly, there was a quiet uneasiness in the dressing room and that Rahul was kinda being left out by the others. Again, all this is just speculation and perhaps everything was ok with the Indian side and maybe it was just Rahul's reticient nature that gave this impression. But my gut feeling is that it is not and that Rahul was in fact kinda alienated. I don't want to say who was at fault etc because I think to an extent I think everyone involved were at fault... So as I said I never said/thought Sachin wanted the captaincy. And I don't know when I said Sachin was evil. I happen to think that even Dravid did some things wrong at that stage... And I respect and admire Sachin as much as you do.


Second thing is, Sachin WAS the vice captain on the last tour. It is obvious that he was being thought of as successor once Dravid decided to step down. And once Dravid said he didn't want to be captain anymore, it was obvious to everyone that Sachin was one of the favorites to be test captain. And given the relative lack of options for captaincy at the moment, he would have been the easiest and safest choice for the selectors. I don't think it has made anything simple for the selectors simply because Dhoni is yet to prove himself to be better than the other contenders for his job in the side. Giving him the captaincy at this stage, even if it works out, would still be a huge risk and as such, a mistake. Unlike in ODIs, Dhoni's test skills are yet to be proven beyond question.



And yes, Sachin's decision is a little inappropriate because he has everything going for him at the moment. He is batting well, he has the respect of the team, the board and the selectors, and more than anything else, as he himself said, he is enjoying his cricket at the moment. If you cannot accept captaincy when you are feeling this good, I don't know when you can, tbh. Contrast that with Rahul. It was obvious that the pressure was too much for him, his team mates were openly defying him and his batting form had dipped alarmingly... Heck, these were the very same reasons why Sachin quit back in 2000, except that his batting form didn't dip alarmingly and instead of his team mates defying him, Sachin felt that the board, selectors and coach were defying him... I think Lara once said when he was handed the captaincy in similar situations for the Windies in 2003 that it would be "dereliction of duty" not to accept captaincy at that stage, even though he didn't really want it. I know we have Kumble and Dhoni and perhaps Sourav or Laxman who can be captain now, but it just won't be the same as having Sachin as captain and I am sure everyone knows that...


And yes, a tour to Australia is feared. It makes or breaks players and captains and not everyone can come through. I think Dhoni is a strong enough guy to come through this but that doesn't hide the fact that this is still a huge risk and a lot will depend on how much confidence the board and selectors place on Dhoni. Whether they give him the sort of team that he feels comfortable with and whether they give him enough voice in the selection process and whether they have the guts to follow their vision even if we do get thrashed in Australia, as seems likely. That is a lot of "if"s there.


Dhoni as captain of India MAY work. That is the whole point right now... Tendulkar or Dravid or Kumble as captain of India works, simply because they can command a place in the side and as such, questions won't be asked about their presence in the side. Plus, a keeper having to skipper in a test match will be mighty tough. Keepers make the best vice captains but they rarely make the best captains. I happen to think Dhoni is an exception, but it remains to be seen how he handles it all...

Apologies if I sounded agro, but there are times when you make your 'speculative statements' sound very much like fact.

Firstly, the plan was for Dravid to never step down as captain, so Sachin being VC should never have meant he was the 'next' captain. Sort of like Gilchrist, because Ponting was never going to lost his captaincy. Dravid should have ideally stayed as captain until his career ended, or if he ever was no longer good enough to demand a place in the side.

I'm not going to talk about this alienation stuff, this stuff that Sachin is talking more before the WC to the captain than after it etc. because it simply gets us nowhere. Its all rubbish that people love to do because it gives us something to talk about, and it happens more so in Indian cricket than in anything.

HB, I respect your posts greatly, but you seem so headstrong on proving that there is a split that you're flipping from one thing to another. First it was a split between Rahul and the Sachin/Sourav gang, and now maybe its all the seniors vs. the younger players. So basically, you've gone from one extreme to the other, because of a gut feeling. Fair enough have a gut feeling, but to deny that you didn't suggest that Sachin was trying something dodgy (whether it be ignoring Dravid or whatever) would be false. I remember someone, and it may have been you, mentioning that they thought Tendulkar still hadn't gotten over the time when Dravid declared on Sachin when he was on 194 vs. Pakistan in 2004.

And I knew you'd bring up Lara's acceptance of captaincy as a criticism of Sachin. Completely different situations. Indian cricket isn't in tatters like WI was firstly, and secondly, Lara was taking charge of both forms of the game. There is NO need to have separate captains when the captain in the ODI team is ALSO in the test team, and many of the former captains (Dravid, Sachin, Sourav) are playing UNDER Dhoni in the ODI team. It just complicates matters.

 

[jeevan]

Other than the obvious "now we have 5 frickin' captains in an 11 man side" reason not to make Kumble captain, the fact that people thought he may be retiring after the England series, and he could honestly call it quits at any time, leaves me thinking its probably best to not give it to the great man.

There are 3 ex-test captains in the team, not 4. Two of whom have demonstrated the clear ability to play for someone else (Sachin for most of the second half his career, Ganguly for all of this year) and the third (Dravid) has actually played first class with Kumble as captain. Falls into the "doesnt feel right" stuff.

Dhoni has not been a test captain already and tests are clearly thought to be different stuff. Note that about 2 weeks ago, I was on the wrong side of a discussion on if Dhoni had proved himself completely worthy of his test place or not. (I thought he had, others didnt and proved me wrong).

Finally Kumble was on firm record prior to England series that his personal goal was 600 test wickets. That leaves him firmly in the team for atleast 2 more series (unless he takes another 10-for or something),

 

[R_D]

There are 3 ex-test captains in the team, not 4. Two of whom have demonstrated the clear ability to play for someone else (Sachin for most of the second half his career, Ganguly for all of this year) and the third (Dravid) has actually played first class with Kumble as captain. Falls into the "doesnt feel right" stuff.

Dhoni has not been a test captain already and tests are clearly thought to be different stuff. Note that about 2 weeks ago, I was on the wrong side of a discussion on if Dhoni had proved himself completely worthy of his test place or not. (I thought he had, others didnt and proved me wrong).

Finally Kumble was on firm record prior to England series that his personal goal was 600 test wickets. That leaves him firmly in the team for atleast 2 more series (unless he takes another 10-for or something),

If Kumble gets the gig than there'll be 5 captains running around the field... Dhoni's the current ODI captain

 

[Jono]

There are 3 ex-test captains in the team, not 4. Two of whom have demonstrated the clear ability to play for someone else (Sachin for most of the second half his career, Ganguly for all of this year) and the third (Dravid) has actually played first class with Kumble as captain. Falls into the "doesnt feel right" stuff.

Dhoni has not been a test captain already and tests are clearly thought to be different stuff. Note that about 2 weeks ago, I was on the wrong side of a discussion on if Dhoni had proved himself completely worthy of his test place or not. (I thought he had, others didnt and proved me wrong).

Finally Kumble was on firm record prior to England series that his personal goal was 600 test wickets. That leaves him firmly in the team for atleast 2 more series (unless he takes another 10-for or something),

Mate, you've missed the point. I understand that there would only be 3 former test captains.

But there would be FIVE, count them, FIVE players that have been captain over the other players at some stage in their career if Kumble was named skipper.

Sachin, Sourav and Rahul. Then Dhoni, who has now captained all 3 of those players in the shorter form. And now you'd have Kumble telling Dhoni what to do. Too complicated.

 

[Sanz]

Dont forget Sehwag. 1 test and 5 Odis as captain..

 

[Richard]

Mate, you've missed the point. I understand that there would only be 3 former test captains.

But there would be FIVE, count them, FIVE players that have been captain over the other players at some stage in their career if Kumble was named skipper.

Sachin, Sourav and Rahul. Then Dhoni, who has now captained all 3 of those players in the shorter form. And now you'd have Kumble telling Dhoni what to do. Too complicated.

Why? What is so wrong about one person telling one what to do one day and things being different the other day?

I personally am "in charge" of a few lads at work who do doorwork at various clubs I attend "as a punter". Hence, the "balance of power" shifts. And it's nothing odd whatsoever.

Same applies to Tests and ODIs. The captain is just the captain - too many people paint the captain as some sort of omniescent thing. All he is is the man who sets the fields and makes the bowling changes once you step onto the field.

 

[Jono]

Name me one sport Richard, one sport where the captain is more important to the team's success than in cricket.

 

[Richard]

0. In cricket the captain is more important than any other sport. No doubts there.

That doesn't, though, mean that people need to overstate said captain's worth, which I find they oft do TBH.

 

[alternative]

Well there we have it guys, Kumble given the Test captaincy now.

Source

 

[jeevan]

Looks like it is Kumble to captain in tests.

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/india/content/current/story/318897.html

While the captain's role is paramount especially when bowling, I dont see why there is a big deal about having separate captains for tests and limited overs. There already are players who get to be specialists in one or the other and cover both only when they get to be very good (or if the talent pool really sucks).

And I also dont see, given the above, why the ODI captain should have any problem being just a player in the longer form (and vice versa).

Most of all I dont see why it is not a big enough problem for Ganguly,Sachin and Dravid to "report" (not my choice of words tbh) to someone else (eg Dhoni) but it becomes unpalatable for Ganguly,Sachin,Dravid & Dhoni to "report" to Kumble. If anything the first 3 with their long years of achievement and humility (in playing for another captain, graciously) set a terrific example for the fourth.

If the test captain was, say, Yuvraj, one could see the point of an "doesnt appear right" imbalance. But it is Kumble, who is in the same league as Sachin,Ganguly,Dravid in the test achievements department.

 

[Richard]

Well there we have it guys, Kumble given the Test captaincy now.

Source