Piyush Chawla

[Perm]

As I said when you accused me of this before - those patterns are not just random ones, things have happened the way they have for a reason.

That's true, but there are always exceptions.

 

[biased indian]

Richard where r u ?????????????????

 

[Richard]

FFS, it's been less than half a day...

As ss said, it seems there's been a fairly large amount of overreaction - can hardly expect anything else, for some any chance to jump on me must be grabbed with both hands. Nonetheless, Jack's words make perfect sense. As for the Mallett thing - what on Earth makes anyone think I've not read that before? It has not the slightest significance to what I was saying.

 

[Prince EWS]

As I said when you accused me of this before - those patterns are not just random ones, things have happened the way they have for a reason.

It is completely unjustifiable to judge a bowled based on what other bowlers of his type from his country have done, though. Chawla isn't going to be intrinsically better or worse depending on how many leg spinners India have produced - it's not really at all relevant to how good a bowler he is.

 

[Richard]

But the reasons why India has encouraged good spin-bowling talent to develop remain. Obviously it doesn't affect the talent - Chawla is clearly talented though, as is Rashid. It's a question of how much that talent has made from it.

 

[silentstriker]

It is completely unjustifiable to judge a bowled based on what other bowlers of his type from his country have done, though. Chawla isn't going to be intrinsically better or worse depending on how many leg spinners India have produced - it's not really at all relevant to how good a bowler he is.

I frequently give the benefit of the doubt one or the other when talking about Indian pace bowlers for example. If there is a history of a country not producing a certain type of player, there is usually a reason behind it and generally it requires an exceptional player to come out and break the stereotype. That doesn't mean that Rashid is not the exception, but based on past experiences, there is something which causes the English leg spinners to taper off, or not to become world class as often as those from other countries. Again, Rashid may very well break that chain, but IMO it is not unreasonable to have doubt until he actually does it.

Same with the Indian pace bowlers. Really, it applies to all players from all countries. It's just that sometimes you give the benefit of the doubt to one player over another based on that countries history of producing that type of player. Example: if its a batsman coming out of India, without seeing him, if you ask me to rate him, I can generally be relatively confident that he won't suck against spin. I'll be less likely to give him the same benefit of the doubt if you ask his ability to play pace at Perth. Now the best player of spin until last year was from the West Indies so obviously these aren't rules, but more of 'personal guidelines to temper your initial excitement.'

Obviously, doing badly or well in any of those situations would cause me to change my mind.

Being born in Yorkshire doesn't make you any more or less talented than being born somewhere else, but countries do differ in terms of how they develop, encourage and build the spinners. In many countries, captains ruin spinners at a young age by not setting proper fields, forcing them bowl defend, not get proper coaching, the pitches aren't conducive, etc. The talent levels might be the same, but the development may suffer. So it just means that a kid from Yorkshire would have more to overcome, compared to someone from maybe Kandy who gets almost tailor made pitches and a captain knowledgeable and willing to put up with a style of bowling.

Same thing with fast bowling and India. No fast bowler in India likes bowling after the 10th over, and captains can't wait to get them off in favor of a spinner as soon as that ends...it would be insane to say that these things have no effect on the chances of a player succeeding, regardless of their talent level. Even at the FC level, and especially the club level, the attitudes and knowledge can differ extensively which has such a huge effect on someone's chances. Look at someone like Powar. If I saw an 18 year old kid bowling the way Powar does, one in India and one in New Zealand, I would say the guy in India probably has a chance to be more successful over the long term. The kid from New Zealand might get tonked around a bit and the captain would probably lose confidence much early, or he'd end up bowling flatter and faster to try to stop it. It's just much harder in some places than in others.

 

[Richard]

Being born in Yorkshire doesn't make you any more or less talented than being born somewhere else

Highly debatable.










Seriously, though, shame Awards are currently on hiatus, I'd rarely have seen better Afridis than that.

 

[pup11]

Does anyone think that Chawla's bowling style is similar to Cameron White (or lets say White used to bowl like Chawla when he was of his age)?

They don't have a leggie that turns much and they both bowl 2 or 3 wrong'un's in every over, but frankly speaking White's bowling has seriously gone down the drain in the last 2 years, but Chawla definitely has the potential to be a good spinner.

 

[Jungle Jumbo]

Does anyone think that Chawla's bowling style is similar to Cameron White (or lets say White used to bowl like Chawla when he was of his age)?

Didn't see anything of the younger White, but the present day one bowls like a very poor combination of Kumble's action (not much flight) with more turn. I can't recall too many leggies with a similar action to Chawla's actually, nothing as smooth as it anyway.

 

[Richard]

David Hoitink compared White to Kumble to me on MSN as long as 4 years ago.

I said "nah, nowhere near as accurate" even then too.

 

[Swervy]

FFS, it's been less than half a day...

As ss said, it seems there's been a fairly large amount of overreaction - can hardly expect anything else, for some any chance to jump on me must be grabbed with both hands. Nonetheless, Jack's words make perfect sense. As for the Mallett thing - what on Earth makes anyone think I've not read that before? It has not the slightest significance to what I was saying.

so you have read that before have you???? right ok

I quoted that really because you have in the past, and seemed to be doing it in this thread, trivialising the part flight plays in a spinners armoury. If 'any fool can bowl loopy deliveries' then it would suggest not everyone does because it doesnt work. Of course, flight and loop does work....so the next logical question to ask is 'why doesnt everyone bowl with it effectively?'....and surely the answer to that is 'because its harder to deliver with competence, and so not any fool can bowl it'

The reason people jump on what you say, is because you use inflamatory language like 'any fool can blah blah' amongst other things, as if you are just trying to get a reaction. And if that is why you say things like that, then it obviously work, so bravo to you

 

[PhoenixFire]

so you have read that before have you???? right ok

I quoted that really because you have in the past, and seemed to be doing it in this thread, trivialising the part flight plays in a spinners armoury. If 'any fool can bowl loopy deliveries' then it would suggest not everyone does because it doesnt work. Of course, flight and loop does work....so the next logical question to ask is 'why doesnt everyone bowl with it effectively?'....and surely the answer to that is 'because its harder to deliver with competence, and so not any fool can bowl it'

The reason people jump on what you say, is because you use inflamatory language like 'any fool can blah blah' amongst other things, as if you are just trying to get a reaction. And if that is why you say things like that, then it obviously work, so bravo to you

Agree with this tbh.

 

[Richard]

so you have read that before have you???? right ok

I quoted that really because you have in the past, and seemed to be doing it in this thread, trivialising the part flight plays in a spinners armoury. If 'any fool can bowl loopy deliveries' then it would suggest not everyone does because it doesnt work. Of course, flight and loop does work....so the next logical question to ask is 'why doesnt everyone bowl with it effectively?'....and surely the answer to that is 'because its harder to deliver with competence, and so not any fool can bowl it'

The reason people jump on what you say, is because you use inflamatory language like 'any fool can blah blah' amongst other things, as if you are just trying to get a reaction. And if that is why you say things like that, then it obviously work, so bravo to you

I say any fool can do something any fool can do. And they can. As Jack mentioned, though, the skill is in bowling the spin plus the flight.

I've never once "downplayed" the role of flight, except when people have intimated that it's more important than spin, which it patently isn't. No-one will get anywhere with skill at flight unless the ball also turns. However, equally just by turning it and bowling every ball with identical trajectory, you'll do far, far less well (and I mean far less) than you would with good flight variation.

 

[Richard]

Agree with this tbh.

Which parts? There's two very different connotations in there - one simply disagreeing with my perception of flight in bowling, one criticising my posting style as just-trying-to-provoke-a-reaction, the type of which I've been told-off for doing several times.

 

[PhoenixFire]

Which parts? There's two very different connotations in there - one simply disagreeing with my perception of flight in bowling, one criticising my posting style as just-trying-to-provoke-a-reaction, the type of which I've been told-off for doing several times.

I was agreeing with the part that was dissmissing you saying that 'Any fool can throw the ball uo', or whatever, which IMO is pretty stupid.

 

[Richard]

Any fool can throw the ball up, and it irritates me greatly when people rave about it, same as it does when people rave about bowling a few short deliveries.

However, throwing the ball up and spinning it is much more difficult for the reasons (as I repeat for the umpteenth time) Jack mentioned earlier on.

BTW - why IMO caps but TBH not?

 

[PhoenixFire]

Any fool can throw the ball up, and it irritates me greatly when people rave about it, same as it does when people rave about bowling a few short deliveries.

However, throwing the ball up and spinning it is much more difficult for the reasons (as I repeat for the umpteenth time) Jack mentioned earlier on.

But as I read it, you were implying that anyone could do it with success, which I know is not what you meant, but you didn't point it out.

BTW - why IMO caps but TBH not?

Lol, no reason whatsoever.

 

[viktor]

Any fool can throw the ball up, and it irritates me greatly when people rave about it, same as it does when people rave about bowling a few short deliveries.

However, throwing the ball up and spinning it is much more difficult for the reasons (as I repeat for the umpteenth time) Jack mentioned earlier on.

BTW - why IMO caps but TBH not?

So, just to clarify: You think that flighting a ball, with sufficient spin on it so that it dips before the batsman gets to it, is a skill but you don't believe that Powar is someone who is sufficiently skilled at it?

 

[pup11]

Powar and Daniel Cullen (to a lesser extent) are the only two bowlers in international circuit who probably flight the ball well in order to deceive the batsman in the air and make the ball dip on the batsman, i think both these offies do that because they both don't have an effective doosra which in a sense ruins the art of off spin bowling IMO.

 

[pup11]

As far as the similarity in bowling styles of Chawla and White i was talking about was that they both struggle to turn these leggie (unless the turf is offering big turn) and they both bowl 2 or 3 wrong'un's every over.
Though these is no similarity between there actions.