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*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

Tom Halsey

International Coach
Jono said:
Injuries was mentioned for all the previous tours, but when Warne was injury free heading to India in 2004, if you look at the previous posts, 'poor form' and the fact he was coming back from his lengthy ban was the excuse. This of course made no sense seeing as it wasn't his first series since the ban. Added to that, the Indian batsman he faced weren't excused for their poor form.
Of course he was injury free, and I've never denied it (maybe someone else has and I've not noticed it) but it really wasn't a bad tour, as I've said.

Poor form or not, India are the best players of spin in the World by an absolute mile and considering he also missed the most spin friendly wicket by far (had he played, considering Clarke took six for 9, his average for he tour would have been mid 20s, as I've said before).
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
Jono said:
Exactly, that's a vital point. Whilst I don't think (as I've mentioned before in this thread) that Murali will destroy India, I think he will do fairly well. Better than both he has, and Warne has in the past.

And once again, my posts against Warne in India isn't saying he isn't a great bowler, because he's one of the best I've ever seen. However you can't ignore this obvious flaw in his record, and its quite amusing that people try and pass if off as a coincidence and 'bad luck'. As I've said many times, I can't really seperate both players. However how Murali performs in Ind in the 3 test series will India will go a long way to seeing just how good he is.
I don't see how anyone's said it's 'coincidence and bad luck', first off.

What we have done is (a couple of pages back, I think) is presented a list of series, when they happened, and Warne's injuries around those times. Admittedly there's a lot of ifs and buts, but if Warne played India now, I'd expect him to do better than both Murali and Warne have in the past (and Warne also did better than Murali has in the past in 2004).
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
And keep in mind that Murali hasnt played tests in IND in the last 7 years or so. He will get his chance very soon and i expect him to comprehensively overtake Warne in IND.
Being rubbish earlier on in your career is not an excuse (and note I haven't made excuses for Warne's 1992 embarrasment against India).

('embarrasment' doesn't look right - but I'm having a mad moment and can't remember how to spell it) :D
 

C_C

International Captain
Tom Halsey said:
Being rubbish earlier on in your career is not an excuse (and note I haven't made excuses for Warne's 1992 embarrasment against India).

('embarrasment' doesn't look right - but I'm having a mad moment and can't remember how to spell it) :D
Its not an excuse - simply pointing out that Murali at his peak hasnt had the chance to play in India yet.......
 

C_C

International Captain
Tom Halsey said:
Wrong. His shoulder was painful thoughout the 1998 tour, and when he got home he discovered that because of it he very nearly didn't play again - in other words, he was injured in India, but it wasn't documented how bad it was until after he got home.
Utter bulldust.
Warne had a shoulder niggle no different than what other bowlers have ever so often. Typical shoulder soreness. That died down and he's had that before in his career too. Just that after the test series in 98 tour, his shoulder snapped during the ODIs. therefore, his injury is not an excuse during that tour's test phase. He was in no different shape than other bowlers who carry a minor niggle here and there.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Jono said:
Injuries was mentioned for all the previous tours, but when Warne was injury free heading to India in 2004, if you look at the previous posts, 'poor form' and the fact he was coming back from his lengthy ban was the excuse. This of course made no sense seeing as it wasn't his first series since the ban. Added to that, the Indian batsman he faced weren't excused for their poor form.
Who's excusing it with poor form? Hell, Warne's tour of India in 2004 was good.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
FaaipDeOiad said:
Who's excusing it with poor form? Hell, Warne's tour of India in 2004 was good.
Nonsense. As Jono said, the Indian batting line-up was completely out of form and low on practice, and was also without Warne's nemesis Sachin Tendulkar for 2 out of the 3 tests he played, yet he still ended up as by far the most expensive bowler on the Australian side and by far the most expensive spinner on either side. Not exactly good for someone claiming to be the "best spinner ever", especially considering it was easily his most successful Indian tour out of 4 attempts.
 
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FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
a massive zebra said:
Nonsense. As Jono said, the Indian batting line-up was completely out of form and low on practice, and was also without Warne's nemesis Sachin Tendulkar for 2 out of the 3 tests he played, yet he still ended up as by far the most expensive bowler on the Australian side and by far the most expensive spinner on either side. Not exactly good for someone labeled the "best spinner ever", especially considering it was easily his most successful Indian tour out of 4 attempts.
Warne had one poor test and two good ones, missed the most helpful pitch of the series and came out with an average of 30. Against the best players of spin in the world, that's a good result.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
FaaipDeOiad said:
Warne had one poor test and two good ones, missed the most helpful pitch of the series and came out with an average of 30. Against the best players of spin in the world, that's a good result.
Match practice counts for a lot. And India hadn't played a test match for God knows how many months. Warne did better in 2004 than he had in India previously, but I think you will be reading too much into it if you think he had the better of the Indian batters or anything of that sort. Even when in poor preparation, guys like Sehwag, Kaif and Parthiv went after Warne and did it well. In fact, it was one series where he did majorly benefit from the good work of the seam trio of his side. They had India under the pump with their aggressive and yet tight bowling and batsmen were generally looking to cut loose against Warne and contributed to their own downfalls. I am sure you would have seen how many poor strokes were played against him. But he did bowl the ball of the series, the one to VVS at Bangalore.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
Except that Warne got injured after he was shellacked by Tendy,Sidhu and Azhar in the tests, not before.
No, he didn't. He was overbowled against SA and NZ in the summer that year, and was already feeling a bit sore before he went to India - and then bowling again in India only worsened it.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
Utter bulldust.
Warne had a shoulder niggle no different than what other bowlers have ever so often. Typical shoulder soreness.
Oh, so that's why it nearly forced him to retire? 8-)
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
a massive zebra said:
Nonsense. As Jono said, the Indian batting line-up was completely out of form and low on practice, and was also without Warne's nemesis Sachin Tendulkar for 2 out of the 3 tests he played, yet he still ended up as by far the most expensive bowler on the Australian side and by far the most expensive spinner on either side. Not exactly good for someone claiming to be the "best spinner ever", especially considering it was easily his most successful Indian tour out of 4 attempts.
The figures comparing him to spinners are rubbish because he missed the stupidly turning wicket (Clarke got six for 9 etc) and out of form or not, India's batsmen are still the best players of spin in the World.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
honestbharani said:
Match practice counts for a lot. And India hadn't played a test match for God knows how many months. Warne did better in 2004 than he had in India previously, but I think you will be reading too much into it if you think he had the better of the Indian batters or anything of that sort. Even when in poor preparation, guys like Sehwag, Kaif and Parthiv went after Warne and did it well. In fact, it was one series where he did majorly benefit from the good work of the seam trio of his side. They had India under the pump with their aggressive and yet tight bowling and batsmen were generally looking to cut loose against Warne and contributed to their own downfalls. I am sure you would have seen how many poor strokes were played against him. But he did bowl the ball of the series, the one to VVS at Bangalore.
Note that I never said it was a great series, merely that it was good. If match practice counts for a lot, then certainly Warne's drug ban should be taken into account, but the fact is there was nothing wrong with his series in 2004. If a legspinner averaged 4.8 wickets a test with an average of 30 in India over his whole career, it would be considered a superb record given the quality of the opposition, and rightly so. I wouldn't say Warne got on top of the Indian batsmen, I would say he won some battles and lost others, and generally held his own throughout the three tests (with, as I said, one poor one and two good ones), and had a generally good series. I don't particularly see why anyone would need to make excuses for it.

Anyway, the point with the "excuses" for Warne's other failures against India is simply that Warne has never really had the opportunity to play them at his best. Now, you obviously can't say that this is the only reason for Warne's failure against India, because it isn't. Indian batsmen generally have played him extremely well, he seems to have mental issues with playing against India in general and so on.

However, Warne suffered the two major injuries of his career in 1998 and 2001, and between and surrounding those injuries was easily the worst time he has had in test cricket. He struggled not only against India, btu against most opposition in that period, as I showed with his series stats in a post earlier in the thread. Warne has played five series against India, and three of them fell within this period between 98 and 2001. His other series have been his debut series in 92, and the most recent one in 2004 where he did okay. Ignoring this is just as silly as claiming that it is the only reason for his troubles, as far as I'm concerned.
 
Let's not forget that as well as the injuries Warne was bordering on obese and in no shape to tour in those Indian conditions. He did OK considering he was trying to rely on natural talent alone.
 

C_C

International Captain
Tom Halsey said:
Oh, so that's why it nearly forced him to retire? 8-)
That is the injury after the Test series in India.

You injure your shoulder- just a regular soreness- you skip a practice match or two, pop a pill and play on....everything is A-ok.... a month or two later, your shoulder just gives way and you are almost crippled in that shoulder. You take time off and are told that your shoulder may never heal.

That your shoulder popped 2 months later a routine soreness every player experiences has no bearing on the performance in those two months before being crippled.....Its simple as that.

Warne played that 98 series with the same amount of fitness as practically every other bowler out there.
In 99, he wasnt injured but he was rusty.
And Warne has never really done well against India in the ODIs either - simply speaking, the main reason Warne has been so dismal against India is the way he bowls and the way Indian batsmen bat.
Almost all Indian batsmen - from Dravid,Laxman, Tendulkar, Azhar, Sidhu,Gavaskar to C.K.Nayudu are the absolute best players of anything bowled at their legs - be it pace or spin. ( Ganguly is the only Indian batsman of any repute who's offside game is much much better than his legside game that i can think of)
Many times i've seen an Indian batsman having a tough time with his timing, until the opposition feeds him a few balls on his legs and those disappear into the stands and the player suddenly finds his timing.
India hasnt had an illustrious left handed batting history ( Ganguly is by far the best left handed batsman produced by India and he isnt very good in tests), which means almost all of India's excellent/great batsmen have been right-handers.
Warne's trademark reliance ( his standard style 9 outta 10 times) is to pitch it in the rough outside the right-hander's leg stump and get the ball to viciously spin across.
This means he bowls at the legs of batsmen most of the times, particularly when he overpitches a fraction. And owing to the Indian batsmen being supreme at playing off their legs ( Azhar's legside game was as good as anyone's for example- better than even Viv's IMO but bowling to his offstump made him look merely good,not immortal- same with Sidhu), Warne has usually been cannon fodder against Indian batsmen - be it Tests, ODIs or simple FC matches against FC sides.
That, IMO, is the biggest single factor of Warne's routine annihilation at the hand of Indian batsmen.
Which is why Warne has had very little success against players who have an extremely strong game in the leg-side ( Brian Lara is another example) but does well against batsmen who's legside game is wonky( English batsmen have tended to be prime examples of this, thus his success against them).
 
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a massive zebra

International Captain
Weaving A Web said:
Let's not forget that as well as the injuries Warne was bordering on obese and in no shape to tour in those Indian conditions. He did OK considering he was trying to rely on natural talent alone.
Entirely his own fault, that is not an excuse.
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
C_C said:
That is the injury after the Test series in India.

You injure your shoulder- just a regular soreness- you skip a practice match or two, pop a pill and play on....everything is A-ok.... a month or two later, your shoulder just gives way and you are almost crippled in that shoulder. You take time off and are told that your shoulder may never heal.

That your shoulder popped 2 months later a routine soreness every player experiences has no bearing on the performance in those two months before being crippled.....Its simple as that.

Warne played that 98 series with the same amount of fitness as practically every other bowler out there.
No, that is infact nowhere near the truth - Warne was overbowled against SA and NZ, and was a bit sore in the shoulder. Then he went to India, worsened it to the point where he nearly had to retire (which was only discovered once he got home, and so was only documented when he got home).

If he got injured once he got home, when did he get injured then? You'll notice that he didn't play any matches in which to get injured (because he was in hospital fearing for his career).
 

C_C

International Captain
Tom Halsey said:
No, that is infact nowhere near the truth - Warne was overbowled against SA and NZ, and was a bit sore in the shoulder. Then he went to India, worsened it to the point where he nearly had to retire (which was only discovered once he got home, and so was only documented when he got home).

If he got injured once he got home, when did he get injured then? You'll notice that he didn't play any matches in which to get injured (because he was in hospital fearing for his career).

thats just the media spin on it in Oz to try and explain the maestro's annihilation.
He played the FC matches and the Tests pretty well. He was A-ok for the tests- bowled 160 overs in 3 matches- you CANNOT do that if your under the effects of a so-called career ending injury. He suffered the injury in the ODI tourney that followed it and therefore, his test performance CANNOT be justified by his injury.
Its like Tendulkar playing injured vs OZ in the last series and bolloxing up can be justifiably said to be caused by his injury-playing WITH an injury. But the same injury line cannot be used to justify his batting failure against NZ in IND after 2003 world cup!!
Or if i play 4 tests being fully fit and then tear my rotor cuff in the ODI tourney following it- i cannot use my injury as an excuse for my performance( or th lack of it) in the Tests before i got injured.
 

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