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Wisden Cricketers of the Year

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
marc71178 said:
No, it's been extended now to include all performances.
All performances in the world? No it hasn't.

The 5 cricketers of the year are picked for their influence on the English First-Class season, meaning the county championship, home tests etc.

The leading cricketer in the world award that Shane Warne won and the rest of the Wisden 40 is worldwide.
 

Tapioca

State Vice-Captain
They changed the rules to encompass the global changes IIRC - why would they change back (especially when picking 1 bowler who wasn't actually that great in the 2004 season)
They did and the CoYs for 2002 and 2003 were picked globally (though the latter had some England bias). Last year, they went back to England only again and instead started the 40 cricketers and leading cricketer gimmicks.

why would they change back
From an interview with Matthew Engel

Some might argue that it's a backward step to focus exclusively on "The English season" when assessing cricketers of the year.

Engel : Many of the world's best players are in England, with counties or touring teams, every year. Sometimes most of them are over here. This year, with the Champions Trophy, nearly all of them will be. I feel it makes the award more distinctive and better-focused. There are very few great players of the past who have never been a Cricketer of the Year.
 
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tooextracool

International Coach
C_C said:
Like i said, you wouldnt know about statistical analysis so desist from saying so.
i know what is enough thank you. you certainly dont need to take courses in statistics to be able to use them effectively 8-)

C_C said:
And for your information, Andy Flower isnt that far behind Viv Richards.
except that stats show him to be ahead not behind.

C_C said:
Ganguly wasnt and isnt a worldclass bat...but neither are butcher,hussain or hooper...and ganguly is better than them.
no hes not, as ive said countless times. if he was he would have been at least capable of scoring against australia,SA and pakistan(and WI with walsh and ambrose), instead of the disgraceful averages that he has against them



C_C said:
This is the most riduculous reasoning ever.
How in blinking hell are batsmen (on average)gonna be more 'well set' against bowlers like McGrath-Gillespie, who bowl wicket-taking deliveries every over..sometimes more than once an over...as compared to Vaas and Fernando or Malinga or whatever ?
how many times have you asked the same question, despite me explaining it again and again? do you have the ability to read english or not?we've had an entire argument about how bowlers keep bowling until they stop taking wickets, and after all that we're back to square one. go back and read my posts, i couldnt be bothered to go thro the entire thing again.

C_C said:
Warne comes in to bowl when the batsmen have been seriously tested and disintegrated by McGrath-Gillespie.... Murali comes in to bowl after batsmen are settled against Vaas and whoemver alsoran bowler.
Yes i am sure you are gonna be way more 'settled' after being probed by McGrath for 5 overs as opposed to Corey Collymore
Better backups exert far more pressure on the batsmen...the other bowlers are bowling far better...McGrath-Gillespie-Kaspa are bowling far better than Vaas-Malinga-Fernando whomever...and yes you are gonna be more settled playing and missing a few McGrath deliveries as opposed to cracking a few boundaries and middling the ball against Fernando or Zoysa or whatever.
again ive explained in previous posts why thats not the case. you're virtually just repeating a point thats already been argued. warne rarely comes into bowl unless of course mcgrath and gillespie arent taking wickets, because only someone like you would take mcgrath off when hes just taken a wicket.
 

Swervy

International Captain
The 'influence on the English calander year' thing is only a guide..sometimes players who have had a big impact worldwide will get chosen...Haydo,VVS...going back a few years, Amarnath won it,partly for his MOM in the World Cup final, but a lot to do with his run getting exploits elsewhere.

The critea for choice is quite fluid I think
 

Adamc

Cricketer Of The Year
marc71178 said:
So how did Hayden get named then?

In the year in question I don't believe he even played in England.
I think to be nominated you have to either: a) perform well in the English FC season, or b) perform well against England. Hayden did the latter, as there was an Ashes tour in Australia in which he did particularly well.
 

C_C

International Captain
i know what is enough thank you. you certainly dont need to take courses in statistics to be able to use them effectively
Unfortunately you dont know enough.
If you did, you would've realised that a 2-3 pts difference in average over a 3 match series is a piffle.

except that stats show him to be ahead not behind.
Proper application of stats does show him behind by a lil bit.
Proper application of stats also include the bowlers they faced off against and take into account the prime form and subsequent near-career end lack of it.

no hes not, as ive said countless times. if he was he would have been at least capable of scoring against australia,SA and pakistan(and WI with walsh and ambrose), instead of the disgraceful averages that he has against them
I disagree. Overall, he is a better batsman. While he is a bit behind against quality opposition, he is definately ahead against the rest. And remember one thing- neither hussain nor butcher are half as good ODI batsmen as Ganguly is/was.

how many times have you asked the same question, despite me explaining it again and again? do you have the ability to read english or not?we've had an entire argument about how bowlers keep bowling until they stop taking wickets, and after all that we're back to square one. go back and read my posts, i couldnt be bothered to go thro the entire thing again.
Bowlers DO NOT bowl until they stop taking wickets...by and large bowlers bowl 7-10 over spells and get replaced by a fresher bowler(unless he is a spinner).I can give you numerous examples of bowlers going off 1-2 overs after taking a wicket simply because they are too tired.
In anycase, McGrath-Gillespie are a lot better at taking wickets than Vaas-whomever.
The difference between Murali comming in and Warne comming in is that in general fewer wickets have fallen in favour of SL compared to AUS and the batsmen at crease are far more settled, having spend significantly more time in the crease and under considerably less pressure (since less wickets have fallen) as compared to Warne.

Just to illustrate my point, in the last series between AUS and SL, Warne and Murali came on to bowl with the opposition thus positioned:

Murali

1st test : AUS 55/1 , AUS 11/0
2nd test: AUS 23/0 , AUS 0/0
3rd test: AUS 72/2 , 36/0


Warne :

1st test : SL 33/0, SL 0./0
2nd test: SL 58/4 , SL 56/2
3rd test: SL 63/0 , SL 18/0

As you can see, Warne comes in when the opposition are significantly worse off....even in SL...factor in other countries where McGrath-Gillespie etc. get an extended run and warne comes in 2nd change, you'll find that warne comes in after significantly more wickets have fallen and there is significantly more pressure on the batsmen.
Whats more, the OZ unit has the ability to sustain that pressure which mutually benifits them and in that area, SL are seriously lacking.

Its really quiete brainless to argue that a bowler doesnt want excellent bowlers to back themselves up and instead would prefer to be a lone warrior- check interviews from Walsh who lamented seriously that WI's lack of support bowlers was seriously hurting the team cause. Having an excellent bowling cast is what benifits OZ and benifitted the WI of the yesteryears...simply because the batsmen are under a lot more pressure and are a lot more tested. Against NZ for eg, the average batsman didnt even face HALF as many topclass delivery as they did against WI of that era and its a matter of pure time vs the WI when you will come crashing down...just like against OZ(to a lesser extent) in this era.
Every single bowler would prefer to have 3 topclass bowler around him, since it makes his job so much easier.Another factor is that batsmen cannot afford to play you out as you are the 'sole threat' but instead will have to flash his arm against you just as much as another.
 
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Swervy

International Captain
C_C said:
I disagree. Overall, he is a better batsman. While he is a bit behind against quality opposition, he is definately ahead against the rest. And remember one thing- neither hussain nor butcher are half as good ODI batsmen as Ganguly is/was.
Has Butcher even play a ODI game????
 

C_C

International Captain
Has Butcher even play a ODI game????
Precisely.
A player who isnt even good enough to represent his nation cannot be compared to one of the alltime great ODI players in ODI history.
 

Tapioca

State Vice-Captain
So how did Hayden get named then?

In the year in question I don't believe he even played in England.
Quoting my last post again, the award was 'global' in 2002 and 2003, before again becoming England only last year.
 

Swervy

International Captain
Tapioca said:
Quoting my last post again, the award was 'global' in 2002 and 2003, before again becoming England only last year.
I dont think they have consciously changed the rules of the awards, its a fluid thing..if someone does really well who has had nowt to do with English cricket, then, unless they have got the award previously, they may well get it
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
Swervy said:
I dont think they have consciously changed the rules of the awards, its a fluid thing..if someone does really well who has had nowt to do with English cricket, then, unless they have got the award previously, they may well get it
Who else was there to pick Internationally?

There's an argument for Sehwag - but what others?
 

Swervy

International Captain
Neil Pickup said:
Who else was there to pick Internationally?

There's an argument for Sehwag - but what others?
who havent won it previously...for this year, I cant think of any
 

Swervy

International Captain
tooextracool said:
over trescothick and giles?
theres too many to count.
bearing in mind that we have sussed out that for a player not to have had influence on the English calender year, he must have had an outstanding season..and that he cant have won it previously...who do you suggest????
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Swervy said:
bearing in mind that we have sussed out that for a player not to have had influence on the English calender year, he must have had an outstanding season..and that he cant have won it previously...who do you suggest????
assuming it could include international players(even though thats not the case) and only considering players who havent been on the list before heres a few you might want to consider:
ponting
kaspa
kallis
gibbs
hoggard
sehwag
sangakkara
some of those would be serious contendors to the player of the year, let alone being on a list ahead of tresco and giles.
 

Swervy

International Captain
tooextracool said:
assuming it could include international players(even though thats not the case) and only considering players who havent been on the list before heres a few you might want to consider:
ponting
kaspa
kallis
gibbs
hoggard
sehwag
sangakkara
some of those would be serious contendors to the player of the year, let alone being on a list ahead of tresco and giles.
actually I am really surprised to find out that Ponting hasnt won it before (he did win Leading players in the world last year though)...and Kallis..you learn something new everyday.

Actually further to what I said earlier about the selection of players, here is what it says in Wisden:
The five Cricketers of the Year represent a tradition that dates back in Wisden to 1889, making this the oldest individual award in cricket. The Five are picked by the editor, and the selection is based, primarily but not exclusively, on the players' influence on the previous English season. No one can be chosen more than once

Later it says:
From 2000 to 2003, the award was made on the basis of all cricket round the world, not just the English season. This ended in 2004, with the start of Wisdens Leading Cricketer in the World award. Jayasuriya in 1997 was chosen for his 'influence' on the English season, stemming from the 1996 World Cup
 

Tapioca

State Vice-Captain
From 2000 to 2003, the award was made on the basis of all cricket round the world, not just the English season.
Cool ! I thought it was only for 2002 and 03. But this explains a possible reason why this tradition came back. Matthew Engel took a sabbatical for four years from 2000. For the next three years, Wisden was edited by Graeme Wright and Tim de Lisle managed it in 2003. This was one of the reforms that Wright and Lisle brought in, another major one being the photo on the cover. So when Engel the traditionalist came back last year, he may have brought back the old system of CoYs.
 

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