Vettori v.s. Giles

[Black Thunder]

I took Vettori - i reckon he flights the ball better and always seem to pose a bit of a threat.

But i didn't expect the poll to be so lopsided.

 

[SJS]

By the way, I find there is a tendency to rate players based on their most recent performances. The rating of Vettori seems to reflect that. I have heard very diffrent views a few months ago

A player should be judged by his play and his capabilities and skill and not his most recent imprssion on the score sheet.

 

[Blaze]

From what I've been hearing some parts of the NZ media are calling for Fleming to be sacked as captain following the Australian series and to be replaced by Daniel Vettori. Not sure it would make any difference to the side personally.

On the Vettori/Giles comparision I agree they're probably pretty much on a par but over time Vettori will become a much better bowler than Giles ever was or ever with be IMO.

Vettori has been a loan hand in the NZ bowling attack for a while now while Giles has the support of Flintoff, Harmison, Hoggard, etc around him. Makes a difference that I reckon.

Thats exactly how i feel. You summed it up beautifully for me

 

[Somerset]

By the way, I find there is a tendency to rate players based on their most recent performances. The rating of Vettori seems to reflect that. I have heard very diffrent views a few months ago

A player should be judged by his play and his capabilities and skill and not his most recent imprssion on the score sheet.

Ashley Giles wasn't exactly performing heroics during the same period Vettori was struggling mind you...going on capabilities, Vettori would be miles ahead anyway. As I mentioned earlier, the fact that the Australians are finding scoring difficult off the left armer highlights how well Vettori is bowling at the moment.

 

[SJS]

Ashley Giles wasn't exactly performing heroics during the same period Vettori was struggling mind you...going on capabilities, Vettori would be miles ahead anyway. As I mentioned earlier, the fact that the Australians are finding scoring difficult off the left armer highlights how well Vettori is bowling at the moment.

I agree. Giles looked a very ordinary bowler indeed. I never fail to say that and stress the post Nasser Hussain Giles every time the topic comes up.

I did not have a great opinion too when he was bowling over the wicket negative stuff under Hussain. you couldnt see what he was capable of. Now , not after one match but more than a year under a new captain he has shown that what was wrong was not with his bowling but with what he was asked to do.

I am not sure about Vettori's action four years ago, honestly. I dont remember noticing what I am saying now. Its possible that he has changed a bit over time. Maybe in his effort to flight more ha found his earlier grip more 'restrictive' , just maybe. All conjecture mind you.

Plus, I am not going by the wickets Giles takes or has taken. hat never has been a consideration. As Rhodes ( I think it was Rhodes) said to his captain when he said well bowled after some 7-8 wickets for not too many runs."I know I bowled well skipper. I dont know you to tell me that. It is when I bowl a whole day and get one or none for over a hundred , and KNOW I have bowled well, that I want you to come and say well bowled Wilfred !!" Or words to that effect.

Wickets and runs can not always tell, particularly for bowlers, how well they performed.

 

[SJS]

OK
Here is a normal off spin grip. The left armer's grip is a mirror image of this (excuse the bad picture I just used my camera to take the picture without scanning).

This shows what i said about the fourth finger resting under the ball closer to the thumb and the two stronget fingers, index and middle, doing the major work o ftweaking.

In Vettoris case the fourth finger doesnt come into the picture so the middle finger moves more or less to where the fourth finger is in this case, leaving the index finger to do all the job.

this makes the grip weak and the spin much less vicious and the revolutions imparted fewer. If you see what I am saying. Its very easy to see for yourself with a ball. Then next time see Vettori bowling and see any other finger spinner.

 

[Natman20]

From what I've been hearing some parts of the NZ media are calling for Fleming to be sacked as captain following the Australian series and to be replaced by Daniel Vettori. Not sure it would make any difference to the side personally.

On the Vettori/Giles comparision I agree they're probably pretty much on a par but over time Vettori will become a much better bowler than Giles ever was or ever with be IMO.

Vettori has been a loan hand in the NZ bowling attack for a while now while Giles has the support of Flintoff, Harmison, Hoggard, etc around him. Makes a difference that I reckon.

I am sick of all this talk. New Zealand do badly in a series oooooohhh lets sack the coaches or the captains - that is totally the wrong thing to do. Vettori I think will be a good captain and we could see him open batting someday

 

[SJS]

I am sick of all this talk. New Zealand do badly in a series oooooohhh lets sack the coaches or the captains - that is totally the wrong thing to do. Vettori I think will be a good captain and we could see him open batting someday

I am amazed too. I think Fleming was one of the best captains in the game today. If he cant bring a moderate team to beat the overwhelming world champions, whats the big deal ?

Reminds one of Indian captins being sacked after losing to Pakistan in Pakistan.

 

[Isolator]

OK
Here is a normal off spin grip. The left armer's grip is a mirror image of this (excuse the bad picture I just used my camera to take the picture without scanning).

This shows what i said about the fourth finger resting under the ball closer to the thumb and the two stronget fingers, index and middle, doing the major work o ftweaking.

In Vettoris case the fourth finger doesnt come into the picture so the middle finger moves more or less to where the fourth finger is in this case, leaving the index finger to do all the job.

this makes the grip weak and the spin much less vicious and the revolutions imparted fewer. If you see what I am saying. Its very easy to see for yourself with a ball. Then next time see Vettori bowling and see any other finger spinner.

I bowl offspin with my index finger doing all the work. I always thought that was the normal way, and it never seemed "weak" to me. In fact, both index and middle fingers on top seems bizarre to me...

EDIT: Going by that picture you posted, my middle finger would be where the third finger is (on the picture).

 

[biased indian]

i totally agree with the poll result as it stand now so u can guess whom i voted

giles best bowler to bowl to the left side of a batsman and fustrate him

 

[SJS]

I bowl offspin with my index finger doing all the work. I always thought that was the normal way, and it never seemed "weak" to me. In fact, both index and middle fingers on top seems bizarre to me...

EDIT: Going by that picture you posted, my middle finger would be where the third finger is (on the picture).

Yes. But that is the normal off break grip. This si the only one I could get from my books.
This one is from a book by Atherton.

I dont have too many coaching books but you should be able to look up yourself. The best reference work on cricket techniques is the MCC cricket coaching book if you can lay hands on it.

 

[James90]

Vettori by a country mile. Rafique and Vettori is a much more evenly matched comparison

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Why is Vettori such a massively superior bowler when Giles has as disappointing an average?

 

[BlackCap_Fan]

Why is Vettori such a massively superior bowler when Giles has as disappointing an average?

Vettori's bowling against the Aussies.

 

[James90]

They both went threw lean patches and have become good more recently. But Vettori is a more developed player, more threatening to take wickets and has performed very well against Australia. Giles is yet to meet those criteria and tbh has never looked that dangerous. Rafique manages to take wickets at regular by tieing batsmen down or beating them with the armball. Both Vettori and Rafique are better batsmen than Giles. Both Vettori and Rafique are better bowlers than Giles

 

[chaminda_00]

Vettori's bowling against the Aussies.

There is more then one team in world cricket, anyway India are better players of spin so if ur going to compare two spinners to one team, then ur better of comparing them to India. Regardless their even as bowler, but Vettori will proabably end up a better bowler, his 24 or something, he will improve allot more as a spinner. Also his a better batsmen then Giles.

 

[Jono]

Vettori for me.

 

[chaminda_00]

They both went threw lean patches and have become good more recently. But Vettori is a more developed player, more threatening to take wickets and has performed very well against Australia. Giles is yet to meet those criteria and tbh has never looked that dangerous. Rafique manages to take wickets at regular by tieing batsmen down or beating them with the armball. Both Vettori and Rafique are better batsmen than Giles. Both Vettori and Rafique are better bowlers than Giles

Since Vaughan has taken over as the england captained Giles has become a more threaten bowler, but in that Vettori has also improved his wicket taking ability. But i do agree with u that Rafique is a better bowler then them both.

 

[marc71178]

I've gone for what I've often said on here - they're far too evenly matched to say either is better.

As for someone saying Rafique - he has the rather considerable bonus of playing most of his cricket on the sub continent.

 

[BlackCap_Fan]

There is more then one team in world cricket

Yes, I know. But the team he is restricting and getting wickets against happens to be the best side in the world, so he can't be that bad a spinner, can he?