What is NZ's problem in playing in Kenya ?

[Tim]

by that I mean your respective countries when they are on tour.

 

[Top_Cat]

I can't believe you'd be that blind to think that terroists wouldn't attack a team even if they don't hold a grudge against them.

New Zealand have sided with the USA in political terms, so attempting to take out the NZ cricket team would be a nice little reminder of who your friends are.

If Australia had been held up in Pakistan by the bomb blasts then this whole scenario would be no different.

Now we're entering into a new phase of terroism, its not just about selection anymore..its about how many you can kill in one area.

Yes, it's much easier on the conscience to believe that these terrorists are just running around killing as many people as they can, purely because they "hate freedom" etc. and all the other 'bollocks' the media would have you believe, isnt it? It's much more difficult to accept that these attacks were well planned and carried out with absolute precision and that they KNEW exactly what they were doing and did it deliberately, isn't it?

Sept 11th is my case in point. Obviously the intention was to kill a lot of people and in that, 2400+ people would be considered an overwhelming success, right? But to the discerning eye, the intention was NOT about just killing as many people as possible. If that were the case, the terrorists would have hit the nuclear power plant on Indian Island, a mere 24 miles from NYC. This would have resulted in a death toll of TENS OF THOUSANDS and a damage bill in the trillions, crippling the US economy.

But no, the moral point was made by hitting and destroying the US's symbol of capitalist strength (the WTC) and the nerve centre of their intelligence (the Pentagon). This point will outlive most of the other hype, moreso than if they'd just killed a whole lot of people, in my opinion.

Terroism, by definition, IS about selection. It's about getting the point across as best as you can without actually engaging the opposition in a formal conflict. War is what you're referring to if you talk about randomness and killing as many people as possible. Big difference which the US doesn't want anyone to understand or there'd be even less support for their 'war on terror'.

 

[aussie_beater]

I can't believe you'd be that blind to think that terroists wouldn't attack a team even if they don't hold a grudge against them.

Tell me one occasion where the NZ cricket team or any other cricket team for that matter was targetted by terrorists.That being said ofcourse no one can tell what's in store in the future.But that doesn't mean anybody stops working and for the cricketers its a profession.No one is asking them to go to a place where a clear and present danger is lurking and people are getting killed in the streets everyday.Nairobi is a city where people live peacefully and it has its share of crimes etc. that every other city has.And if anything can happen there, then it can happen anywhere else, can't it ?

 

[aussie_beater]

But no, the moral point was made by hitting and destroying the US's symbol of capitalist strength (the WTC) and the nerve centre of their intelligence (the Pentagon). This point will outlive most of the other hype, moreso than if they'd just killed a whole lot of people, in my opinion.

Well we have had this discussion at length I believe in the "Off topic" section sometime ago, and this ain't the right forum to kickstart it again....but for the record, IMO that's a lot of bunkum.

 

[Tim]

I still don't think it matters whether NZ were targeted or not, they were still involved in a terroist act on 3 occassions & I can't blame them for taking Government advice.

Why should they risk their lives to play a match against Kenya?

As for the WTC, Osama wanted masses dead aswell as knocking out the heart of America's business, he knows George Bush, he's a man who likes to deal punishment. And what did you think 'jihad' meant Top_Cat?..all along he Osama said he wanted to bring war on America.

 

[aussie_beater]

I still don't think it matters whether NZ were targeted or not, they were still involved in a terroist act on 3 occassions & I can't blame them for taking Government advice.

Don't you think all of those were cases of being in the wrong place at the wrong time ? And can't that happen anywhere in the world to anybody and not only the NZ players ?

 

[Tim]

You're quite right...but as I said NZ have been unfortunate to have been in a terroist situation 3 times.

None of us here have probably ever been in one so we can't talk until we've experienced it.

To be honest, to be stranded in a foreign country where little english is spoken would be quite frightening and how you don't know whats going to happen next.

 

[aussie_beater]

To be honest, to be stranded in a foreign country where little english is spoken would be quite frightening and how you don't know whats going to happen next.

And what's that supposed to mean ? Are you suggesting that NZ only tour English speaking countries 'coz the others where some "strange" language is spoken, you never really know what they are conspiring behind you ?.... you better explain what you meant, pal. And I thought you were an admin in this forum and would have known better before uttering such inflammatory statements.

 

[Top_Cat]

And what did you think 'jihad' meant Top_Cat?..all along he Osama said he wanted to bring war on America.

And what do YOU think a Jihad really means? I can tell you it ain't got anything to do with warring on another country/government/religion explicitely. Usama sure draws a long bow when he uses the term and realistically speaking, for him to call himself a Muslim and use the terms like Jihad as he has is at best insulting to followers of Islam and at worst, blasphemous to his own religion.

Anyway we're getting away from the topic at hand............

I think say the NZ players should play because they are going to be afforded the security of visiting kings so I think they'll be okay. I do understand and respect their feelings and, as I said, I would stand by their decision to protect their own lives but I do disagree with their reasoning.

Sure, say you're not playing and not offer a reason, maybe say it just "doesn't feel right"; that's fine, that's the NZ players' perogative. But as far as legal contracts go, they'll be required to provide reasoning and if they can't, the aforementioned 'get out' clauses in their contracts won't apply and they'll probably have to monetarily compensate the Kenyans. Right now, in my opinion, the reasonings I'm hearing from them simply aren't strong enough.

 

[Tim]

Why do you think it is such an inflammatory statement?
Lets not read between the lines.

When did i ever say that NZ should only tour English speaking countries, how ridiculous is that? Stop mixing words.

 

[Tim]

Im sure it would be the same for a non-english speaking person coming to NZ & a terroist act occuring, im sure they'd be frightened.

 

[Top_Cat]

When did i ever say that NZ should only tour English speaking countries, how ridiculous is that? Stop mixing words.

You didn't say that, but when you make ambiguous statements, people will ask the question.

That said, aussie_beater, I think we'd BOTH better tone it down a little, mate.

 

[aussie_beater]

Why do you think it is such an inflammatory statement?
Lets not read between the lines.

Because your statement there seems to suggest that in a non-English speaking country you don't really know if others are conspiring against you by speaking in their own language.It suggests that you cannot trust anybody who does not talk your language.

When did i ever say that NZ should only tour English speaking countries, how ridiculous is that? Stop mixing words.

Ok then... explain what you meant there and that would help clear up the confusion, wouldn't it ?

 

[aussie_beater]

You didn't say that, but when you make ambiguous statements, people will ask the question.

That said, aussie_beater, I think we'd BOTH better tone it down a little, mate.

Oh yeah I surely would tone it down...but some things just get to me.

 

[Top_Cat]

Oh yeah I surely would tone it down...but some things just get to me.

That's okay. We all have our buttons to push. Good on ya, mate.

By the way, I just asked a Kenyan friend of mine who speaks Kiswahili and he says that's the official language of Kenya..............along with English. That's right, they are the joint official languages of Kenya. It's also the official language of Zimbabwe along with Shona and Sindebele.

 

[Tim]

I know this subject can be a very heated debate at times, and I apologise if my statements were out of line to some people but im 100% behind the players on this one.

 

[Top_Cat]

Check this out! More info on Kenya:

http://213.131.178.162/Nations/Africa/Kenya/default.asp

Religion: Protestant 40 per cent, Roman Catholic 30 per cent, Indigenous beliefs 22 per cent, Muslim 6 per cent, Other 2 per cent. The majority of Kenyans are Christian. About 40 per cent belong to various Protestant churches and 30 per cent are Roman Catholic. Approximately 6 per cent are Muslim. Most Muslims live along the coast and in the North East. About 10 per cent of the people follow indigenous belief systems or non-traditional Christian beliefs.

Geez, they're more a Christian country than Australia is!

Tim: No worries. It wasn't really getting out of hand that much.

I was a member of the Rage Against the Machine board before it went down in the post Sept 11th wake. As far as arguments went, that was the worst BEFORE Sept 11th and after, it was just horrific. One particular user got the board shut down by the FBI after he threatened the life of the President (a federal crime) in a topic. Someone at AR15.com saw it, complained and they mounted a campaign to get the site shut-down. Closing the forum then happened.

 

[aussie_beater]

One particular user got the board shut down by the FBI after he threatened the life of the President (a federal crime) in a topic. Someone at AR15.com saw it, complained and they mounted a campaign to get the site shut-down. Closing the forum then happened.

We surely won't let that sort of thing happen here :P ...and it never degenerates to that kinda level in this forum ever.

Tim: No sweat mate, sometimes we just love to give it a hard tuck...... but all in a friendly banter.

And I surely respect the right of the NZ players to make a decision one way or the other...no question about it. I just don't agree with the logic behind it.

 

[aussie_beater]

Check this out! More info on Kenya:

http://213.131.178.162/Nations/Africa/Kenya/default.asp

Religion: Protestant 40 per cent, Roman Catholic 30 per cent, Indigenous beliefs 22 per cent, Muslim 6 per cent, Other 2 per cent. The majority of Kenyans are Christian. About 40 per cent belong to various Protestant churches and 30 per cent are Roman Catholic. Approximately 6 per cent are Muslim. Most Muslims live along the coast and in the North East. About 10 per cent of the people follow indigenous belief systems or non-traditional Christian beliefs.

Geez, they're more a Christian country than Australia is!

A guy I know came back from a safari trip to Kenya just a couple of months ago with his family and kids.He was saying that its a beautiful country with very nice people.And in his opinion its its the best place on earth for wildlife enthusiasts.

They elected a new government recently and it seems they are very optimistic about the new government which has come to power as they expect it to bring down the level of corruption that has seeped into the Government and public life over the years.

 

[Top_Cat]

We surely won't let that sort of thing happen here ...and it never degenerates to that kinda level in this forum ever.

You can be SURE it won't happen on my bloomin' watch...........

But yeah, I just used that to illustrate how bad things CAN get and that it NEVER gets as bad here as it certainly could and has done elsewhere.