Al Salvador
School Boy/Girl Captain
Discuss.
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Was SF barnes a spin bowler or pace bowler?
- Thread starter Al Salvador
- Start date
Al Salvador
School Boy/Girl Captain
I always felt bedser bowled somewhere between 115-120, was Barnes that quick
the big bambino
Cricketer Of The Year
Depends who he was up against and what conditions he was in. For league clubs he could earn his wage bowling slower. Apparently he was demanding with terms when touring Australia where the conditions and strength of opposition forced him to bowl at pace, yet with swing and spin. That, he reasoned, increased his chances of injury and imposed on his stamina so he wanted compensation for it.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
Bedser was quicker than that, I recon Barnes was in that range.
the big bambino
Cricketer Of The Year
I've just read his obit in the 1968 Wisden. There are comments from players, including Rhodes. He describes him as medium pace. There are also comments from Hill, as the receiving batsman in a test and Strudwick, his keeper for the Players, of his ability to pitch outside leg then turn the ball onto off stump. In Hill's case the batsmen said he knocked off stump silly while in Strudwick's case the ball leapt over the top of it.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
I also reckon Malcolm Marshall bowled 140kmph+, can never prove it, doesn't mean I disqualify him from all Cricketing discussions though.
sayon basak
International Coach
It's funny as contemporary reports matter sometimes for some specific cricketer(s) but doesn't really matter otherwise.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
just like peer reputation, it's valid when it's my guy and it's romanticism when it's someone I don't like etc
Al Salvador
School Boy/Girl Captain
sayon basak
International Coach
Yeah was watching it this morning. He is pretty universally categorized as a medium pacer who could seam, swing and cut the ball. Has the footage of him bowling at the age of 80 as well, but that doesn't do justice to him. He was 6 ft tall, and in his own words, he wanted to be 8 ft while releasing the ball.
Al Salvador
School Boy/Girl Captain
When was that video documented, 1980s?
Al Salvador
School Boy/Girl Captain
Footage looks lot more modern than that
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
He bowled in an Era where the distinction wasn't necessarily that relevant, as proper specialized fast bowling (imo a large part due to pitch conditions and improvement in boot materials allowing more stability and force generation being key overlooked factors) as we know today wasn't really a thing.
The kind of run in that Barnes (and many other quicker bowlers of the late 19th into early 20th century) had, allowed them to focus either on getting that extra 5 mph of pace, or extra rotation and cut off the pitch, depending on the circumstance.
This was the old fashioned medium pacer, which I guess by a modern seam/spin binary would be on the "seam" side of the equation. But in actuality it's a style that simply is obsolete and doesn't exist today.
The kind of run in that Barnes (and many other quicker bowlers of the late 19th into early 20th century) had, allowed them to focus either on getting that extra 5 mph of pace, or extra rotation and cut off the pitch, depending on the circumstance.
This was the old fashioned medium pacer, which I guess by a modern seam/spin binary would be on the "seam" side of the equation. But in actuality it's a style that simply is obsolete and doesn't exist today.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
It does, I don't reckon he bowled much slower than Ian Botham IE 120s clicks, considering he was directly put in the same class as Tate and Bedser, and Bedser was directly put into the same speed bracket as Botham by those who saw both, I'm not really seeing a reason why a modern medium pacer would've different speeds to Barnes, Tate or Bedser. When Len Hutton faced Sydney Barnes, a 55+ Barnes mind you, he did not come to the conclusion that he was some completely different kind of bowler.
shortpitched713
Cricketer Of The Year
Velocitation. Bowlers were gradually getting faster, with the slower ones dropping out of viability. But because the change is happening slowly in one direction, it is hard to see and isn't really acknowledged as such. Unfortunately a lot of footage also is of the quicker bowlers of the black and white Era, simply because it is more exciting to watch so representative comparisons are often difficult.
Regardless, I do note a difference in both run up and speed, between your average Test "seamer" (i.e. non express pace merchants like a Thompson or Shoaib) in 1935, compared to 1985. Hutton too likely was seeing a quicker bowler by the end, but just because he was very successfully adapting, doesn't mean the speed wasn't also slowly changing.
Johan
Hall of Fame Member
The gap doesn't need to be large, The fastest pacers today hit 150 kmph, The fastest female ones hit high end of 120 clicks, I doubt pacers even in 1860 with a long run up would bowl slower than that (no amount of velocitation is beating biology) on a consistent basis. I'm sure the average pacer of 1985 was probably faster than the average pacer of 1935, by a much smaller margin that the difference between the average 1985 pacer and the average 2025 pacer, but this doesn't mean Wiann Mulder bowls faster than Ian Botham, that is not the average seamer but an exception, Botham was seen as slow even in his era and Larwood and Trueman thought he was far too slow even at his peak.
Let's say your conventional seamers in 1935 bowled 120-141 kmph with 145 being express, your run in the mill 1985 pacers bowled 123-144 kmph with 148 being express and your 2025 pacers bowl 126-147 kmph, you can easily have Bowes bowl 128, Botham bowl 128 and Woakes bowl 128 and none would really be out of place.
Bedser, Tate and Barnes are traditionally treated as Identical bowlers and both Trueman and Bailey thought Bedsernand Botham were about the same pace in the air (Bedser seemed quicker off the pitch) and if the same principle follows with Tate and Barnes, they are perfectly respectable modern medium pacers, Bedser can be Botham pace and be a marginally more standout bowler in his era.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
Don't be pedantic.
You've seen him bowl and have a literal grasp on what you've seen. He was a genuine fast bowler who could be elevated to express.
There's not a single person alive who've seen Barnes bowl and what little footage there is of him, it's a little more than off spin.
If you want to pretend there's no difference between the two that's entirely on you.
No one has ever said they should be excluded from cricketing conversations, but comparing them to more contemporary, or even cricketers from the 30's who we've actually seen is neigh on impossible.
Blenkinsop
State 12th Man
Botham became a medium pace trundler later on in his career. He was a genuine pace bowler for the first few years though. Certainly a fair bit quicker than Bedser, Statham or Tate.